tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post236699241660254554..comments2024-03-22T11:34:45.165+01:00Comments on taw's blog: The one true EU4 idea group rankingtawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16972845140253292628noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-66455856895377986932019-08-29T16:49:44.390+02:002019-08-29T16:49:44.390+02:00Garbage in, garbage out.Garbage in, garbage out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-73512616635578015122018-06-24T07:29:52.331+02:002018-06-24T07:29:52.331+02:00First of all great work. I usually take at least 2...First of all great work. I usually take at least 2-3 mil ideas and was about to disagree until you mentioned "Being bigger, or having more sword mana (so extra mil tech) is generally worth far more than those tiny idea bonuses." Being one mil tech ahead is much more important than having more discipline and morale. I choose to trust calculations too.<br /><br />I also think that ranking ideas between their own groups (adm, dip, mil) is a good idea. If I have a 0-0-6 ruler than I'll probably pick a military idea anyway.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10140177492902172659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-27796771582174245632018-05-11T14:32:20.619+02:002018-05-11T14:32:20.619+02:00Anonymous: All assumptions are explicit in the cod...Anonymous: All assumptions are explicit in the code. I'm totally open to discussing assumptions, or to any fixes to formulas (like the one about missionary strength vs extra missionaries, where the commenter was right for current game version), but very few people ever do that - they just "know" that something is good or not, and base it on absolutely nothing.tawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16972845140253292628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-65465318805619475862018-05-11T14:28:52.198+02:002018-05-11T14:28:52.198+02:00"but calculations say otherwise, and I trust ..."but calculations say otherwise, and I trust calculations."<br /><br />Calculations based on completely subjective, arbitrary assumptions, that make no sense?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-8099827243151240372018-04-15T00:38:22.853+02:002018-04-15T00:38:22.853+02:00Most of the assumptions in the algorithm such as b...Most of the assumptions in the algorithm such as blobbing rate are explicitly specified and can be tweaked. It's command line script (and it requires copy of the game to work), so it's not the easiest thing. I thought about putting it online, with some sliders for adjusting assumptions.<br /><br />You can check assumptions in code comments https://github.com/taw/paradox-tools/blob/master/analysis_eu4/bonus_scoring.rb<br />Some of them might be outdated by now, or could use some tweaking. It usually doesn't make a huge difference.<br /><br />Prussian Space Marines stuff mostly only happens when facing army with really bad composition (like AI inf-only merc spam stacks once it ran out of normal troops), catching them drilling, surprise blocking retreat etc., and really has little to do with combat modifiers. In overwhelming majority of usual cases enemy will just shattered retreat after losing battle.<br /><br />As for manpower etc. you can ideas for more manpower, or you can use ideas for stronger army (lower attrition, higher damage per unit), or you can blob harder, or you can get more gold and merc spam, or you can even get building cost discount and spam manpower buildings etc. There's a lot of approaches to it.<br /><br />And I'm not disputing that under current patch (with Cossacks DLC), average missionary strength is generally much higher than average number of missionaries, at least for Christian countries.tawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16972845140253292628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-37127186550809596462018-04-14T18:58:24.271+02:002018-04-14T18:58:24.271+02:00The problem with that is the extra bonus provided ...The problem with that is the extra bonus provided by advisors is only their secondary purpose. Their primary purpose is extra monarch points. Mana is difficult to come by. Mana is the most valuable resource in the game. Expansion is halted entirely by a lack of admin. If you're behind on military tech, you can't hope to stand up to opposing militaries. Diplo tech is often less important, but it's got a few uses outside of tech. Grabbing up the extra missionary strength advisor is nice yeah, but it's generally unimportant because you've either already taken religious or humanist and hence don't need it, or it's early game and you likely don't need it all that much (unless you're a muslim sultanate in India, I guess). <br /><br />The rest of your "the algorithm is outdated points are fine or I'm simply unable to comment on from lack of experience.<br /><br />I recognize that your algorithm judges ideas separately.<br /><br />What is "fairly representative gameplay"? Conquering the entirety of Europe as Ulm? Conquering a good chunk of Europe as France? Conquering Iberia and France as Spain? You can't simply assert that your algorithm represents fairly representative gameplay when you can't even define fairly representative gameplay.<br /><br />Missionary strength is rarely as valuable as another missionary. I'm not sure what game your playing when you only have a missionary strength of 2, but it's certainly not EU4. You're missionary strength=missionary claim only works when your missionary strength is equal to your number of missionaries, and, again,if this is true, you've screwed up.<br /><br />You're overstating how overrated morale and discipline are rated by a longshot, but, generally, you're right, they make little to no difference in an actual battle. So why do I value military ideas? Manpower. Be it national manpower, manpower recovery speed, land force limit (in the early game), or mercenary cost and availability, all help to increase and restore manpower. But another problem is losing manpower. How do you avoid that? I'm glad you asked, through discipline and other combat modifiers.<br /><br />Thanks for the recommendation, but I've already seen the video. What I find ironic is that Mr. Reman is a proponent of military ideas, especially quantity, my personal favorite too.<br /><br />Also, haven't you ever seen a Prussian Space Marine corps stackwipe an army four times its size? Obviously, this is unnecessary over kill, but the point is that combat modifiers obviously make a huge difference, especially late game when combat width is nearly always filled to it's entirety.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-47873645362571540032018-04-05T23:35:29.407+02:002018-04-05T23:35:29.407+02:00Anonymous: First, the disclaimer. This ranking is ...Anonymous: First, the disclaimer. This ranking is based on a version that's 3 years old now, so many things which used to be a lot more valuable back then. For examples:<br />* there was no way to reroll advisors or ask estates, so if you wanted specific one (like missionary strength or diplo relations or unrest) you were completely at mercy of the RNG. Or at best you'd get a level 3 you couldn't afford, or level 1 which basically cost your infinite money empire -2 power/month if you wanted the bonus.<br />* there were fewer ways to get missionary strength (no estates, no way to accept cultures at will, no reliable way to get inquisitors except slow RNG)<br />* hostile attrition was very important before current super low 5% attrition cap<br />* there was no free diplomat from being kingdom+, so diplomat from ideas was extremely valuable<br />* back then proper way to expand was mixing coring and diploannexations about equally, so admin wasn't actually all that helpful (and that extra diplomat was a lot more important than now)<br /><br />For most recent rankings (which still needs a few tweaks around things like embracement cost etc.), it's:<br />10.63 Exploration Ideas<br />6.62 Diplomatic Ideas<br />5.92 Expansion Ideas<br />5.39 Humanist Ideas<br />5.32 Religious Ideas<br />4.66 Influence Ideas<br />3.87 Administrative Ideas<br />3.67 Plutocratic Ideas<br />3.59 Innovative Ideas<br />3.49 Aristocratic Ideas<br />3.45 Defensive Ideas<br />2.74 Quantity Ideas<br />2.74 Offensive Ideas<br />2.69 Quality Ideas<br />2.24 Trade Ideas<br />1.36 Economic Ideas<br />1.25 Espionage Ideas<br />0.84 Maritime Ideas<br />0.81 Naval Ideas<br /><br />Now for some more specific points where you're wrong for even current patch:<br />* the algorithm inherently based on judging ideas separately, some synergize (like religious and exploration, which gives you free great CB for whole world), some anti-synergize (like religious and humanist).<br />* the algorithm assumes fairly representative gameplay, in particular fairly heavy blobbing but nowhere near WC levels - if you're going for WC then administrative ideas are a lot more important<br />* missionary strength vs missionaries - if you already have 2 missionaries and average strength of 2%, then extra missionary and extra point of missionary strength are of equal value (3x2% or 2x3%). Both those numbers depend on religion you play as and part of the world where you play, but if it wasn't for free inquisitor from estates they'd be about comparable.<br />* military idea groups are mostly garbage overrated by the beginners. Early game your 10k stack with ideas fights as well as your opponent's 11k stack without ideas. And then you still can't take as much land as you want or half of Europe would coalition you and wipe you out either way. Number of campaigns where this tiny advantage matters is basically zero, it just lets you be a bit more sloppy. Things which are bottlenecks like admin points, dip points, AE, unrest modifiers (to tank more OE), siege speed modifiers, gold for merc spam etc. don't care about your morale modifiers.<br />* in particular if you think morale is important, I'd recommend checking out Reman's combat tutorials for beginners - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7p-t_rMi9UrhWMeL-MGM2Q/featured<br />tawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16972845140253292628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-49172504290960028462018-04-05T05:48:25.215+02:002018-04-05T05:48:25.215+02:00Also, it ignores that military ideas (like morale ...Also, it ignores that military ideas (like morale and discipline) can be necessary for early game expansion, the most important phase of the gameAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-48219382868169543332018-04-05T02:49:09.990+02:002018-04-05T02:49:09.990+02:00You say this while also devaluing Administrative i...You say this while also devaluing Administrative ideas to a ridiculous degree. Administrative points are ALWAYS the biggest factor in preventing expansion, with the second being manpower, another thing you severely underestimate. Coalitions are annoying,but only a REAL problem in the Holy Roman Empire where AE is multiplied to an insane degree. Money is never a problem as taking loans to fund wars where both land and money are taken is always profitable, and, even when it isn't, loans are never a problem and usually beneficial.<br /><br />Missionary strength being valued the same as a missionary, as another person pointed out, is insane. If your missionary strength is higher than 1 (which it always is), then a second missionary is more efficient. <br /><br />Another huge issue with this is something you acknowledge yourself. Najd, Spanish, and Byzantine ideas are SEVERELY overvalued because missionary strength is less valuable the larger the value is. This also ignores conflicting ideas. Tolerance of heretics/heathens is rarely useful when combined with missionary strength.<br /><br />Things like hostile attrition and increased advisor pools are practically worthless (the former only so in a single player campaign, but that's the only way you could rate military ideas so low), yet you rank both of them as equal to things like missionaries and MORE than things like manpower.<br /><br />You should have realized your algorithm was garbage when things like espionage rank higher than quantity and administrative.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-26991779292429394602018-03-12T11:06:32.022+01:002018-03-12T11:06:32.022+01:00Ben Grosz: If you gave Ottomans generic ideas, and...Ben Grosz: If you gave Ottomans generic ideas, and Bosnia all the military ideas, Ottomans would roflstomp Bosnia anyway.<br /><br />Anyway, unless you're talking Jan Mayen, most military bonuses from ideas are really low. Being bigger, or having more sword mana (so extra mil tech) is generally worth far more than those tiny idea bonuses.tawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16972845140253292628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-25461506814941277842018-03-12T09:24:11.358+01:002018-03-12T09:24:11.358+01:00Here is a good test for this algorithm and the rea...Here is a good test for this algorithm and the reason I think it is utter bollocks. Let's say two relatively evenly matched countries go toe to toe, not one takes tim top 8 ideas and the other takes the bottom 8. I think these two nations should be Tunis(last 8) and Morocco (first 8). Tunis would simply roflstomp Morocco because Tunis would have all the military ideas. The problem is this algorithm has no idea what opportunity cost is. For every non mil related idea group, you miss out on mil mil bonuses which another nation could take and gain an advantage.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18072921784883871995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-51572797271430223482018-01-27T21:08:08.013+01:002018-01-27T21:08:08.013+01:00Anonymous: The ranking weights can be adjusted bas...Anonymous: The ranking weights can be adjusted based on playstyle, but the results are pretty much the same - you get far stronger army by blobbing more efficiently (by colonizing, coring faster, diploannexing faster, avoiding coalitions etc.) than from minor bonuses provided military ideas.<br /><br />The ranking here is for very old version of the game, but it didn't change that much.tawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16972845140253292628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-8503356070677926242018-01-27T20:37:22.629+01:002018-01-27T20:37:22.629+01:00Sorry but this ranking is kind bs. Great that you ...Sorry but this ranking is kind bs. Great that you made some kind of algorythm but the best ideas are the ones that are usefull to your style of playing. For example, you value exploration ideas very high but to me they are useless. Why? Because I don't usually play the collonization game. I prefer the good old warfare, therefore the best ideas for me are the military ones. The same goes with national ideas. NI that focus on collonization are basicaly useless to me. Once again the best ideas are the ones that suit your playstyle. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-9469567628850873052017-04-17T05:14:24.436+02:002017-04-17T05:14:24.436+02:00And admin is the best (one of) because the amount ...And admin is the best (one of) because the amount of admin it saves you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-42636574967451979412017-04-16T23:47:23.905+02:002017-04-16T23:47:23.905+02:00And how can you value yearly legitimacy as 0.5, bu...And how can you value yearly legitimacy as 0.5, but not even count prestige/from land battles? Prestige is what causes the (less valuable) legitimacy grow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-66279344041819198212017-04-16T23:44:32.593+02:002017-04-16T23:44:32.593+02:00Also, Dip is not equal to admin and sword mana is ...Also, Dip is not equal to admin and sword mana is at least on par with bird mana.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-27291580485511284952017-04-16T23:31:55.545+02:002017-04-16T23:31:55.545+02:00Valuing a diplomat as greater than a merchant and ...Valuing a diplomat as greater than a merchant and missionary is your first red flag. You devalue millitary conquest in favor of colonization, but a more effective strategy is stealing the colonies from weaker colonizers. A formula like this is illogical, because scenarios and events play such a huge role in their value. France colonizing is illogical when you can conquest throughout Europe and beatup on the colonizers. What are the Turks or Ulm going to do with a colonist? Even if the Turks switched spots with portugual, the stacking of core cost reduction makes administrative and military ideas optimal for them. Synergy and focus is everything.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10013328592674289220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-85387508676221493202017-02-02T02:13:59.607+01:002017-02-02T02:13:59.607+01:00is there Moluccan ideas?is there Moluccan ideas?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-64685537941865898432016-08-03T17:43:11.797+02:002016-08-03T17:43:11.797+02:00I disagree with MIL MP being the least valuable. A...I disagree with MIL MP being the least valuable. A single MIL tech advantage can win battles and even wars for you. Especially the ones that give boost in both morale and tactics. For instance, tech 4 Korea can single-handedly take on tech 3 Ming. That's how important MIL MP is. Dip MP should've been the one with 0.8 value. There's no other use for it aside of reducing WE and annexing vassals, and usually your provinces end up with high production points because there's no other way to spend that overflowing DIP points.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-70998351477007436432016-01-05T22:14:00.910+01:002016-01-05T22:14:00.910+01:00Great attempt on summarizing it all, but there are...Great attempt on summarizing it all, but there are some really serious flaws to the values.<br /><br />For instance modifying papal influence by a chance to be a catholic has no logic, since every nation having this is catholic. Also on the same note - stab costs 100 if not modified, the further stability over 1 cost much more and those are the ones you spend your papal influence on - hence its value is amore than a bit off.<br /><br />Advisor pool +1 cost equals one point? Really? I never found it even remotely useful.<br /><br />Missionary equals one missionary strength? Now this is completely wtf. This is true only if your positive missionary strength is equal to the number of missionairies, which is likely never. Also these two are extremely interdependent.<br /><br />But especially, all your claims about military being useless are based on making 10 percent increase worth 1 point. This is really ludicrous. I mean, seriously, do you think that having two diplomats a two diplomatic reputation is worth having 60 percent stronger armies? Is there any argument you can base this assesment on? <br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04453115973541427928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-24478829330257774102015-09-03T03:13:16.557+02:002015-09-03T03:13:16.557+02:00Really cool idea but i guess the problem is raking...Really cool idea but i guess the problem is raking idea groups without context - exploration may be good, but in some situations its useless. From my perspective when you're talking about which are the better idea groups you're looking for the ones that hold the most value regardless of the situation you are in, which is why the military ones tend to be the ones that stand out. Similarly some idea groups kind of overlap to the point in which it would be detrimental to take both of them, Religious and Humanist for example, and in those cases the weaker idea group becomes significantly less optimal.<br /><br />Also, you can't defend espionage and not try to back it up :P. I cannot see how its a case of people hating it more than it deserves, I've tried to find the vaule but those ideas are useless. <br /><br />And in case you're wondering, its a tie between religious and quantity for the best idea group, regardless of the situation they are both incredible and they are probably the only two idea groups that don't have something completely awful tucked inside them somewhere.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-473336461076721482015-07-26T13:36:41.433+02:002015-07-26T13:36:41.433+02:00Really cool concept but the other anon has a point...Really cool concept but the other anon has a point. The flat values grossly overvalue diplomats and undervalue manpower, morale and discipline. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-35563998223175643112015-05-25T08:44:01.612+02:002015-05-25T08:44:01.612+02:00It's so cool that there's even an algorith...It's so cool that there's even an algorithm used. I'm glad that my teacher who teaches me polish using Skype at http://preply.com/en/polish-by-skype mentioned this. I totally agree with the ranking.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05565264786646251781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-72350566061096752602015-05-24T21:22:31.143+02:002015-05-24T21:22:31.143+02:00Anonymous: I'm aware that internet thinks espi...Anonymous: I'm aware that internet thinks espionage is awful and military ideas are amazing, but calculations say otherwise, and I trust calculations.<br /><br />Weight changes you mentioned are reasonable, but they wouldn't really change ranking that much.tawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16972845140253292628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27488238.post-78767502167256573702015-05-24T20:30:48.109+02:002015-05-24T20:30:48.109+02:00Your flat values are just flawed.
Colonist should...Your flat values are just flawed.<br /><br />Colonist should be at best 2, and diplomat at best 1,5.<br /><br />You should have realised something went horribly wrong when espionage wasnt in last 3.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com