Conquering Empire Total War World as United Provinces

I last played Empire total war two years ago (post 1, post 2).

Empire Total War has 3 game breaking issues:

• fort sieges will go 0 fps if you use artillery to make breaches, and 10 turns into campaign, every province has a fort
• naval battles are painfully boring beyond belief
• diplomacy is completely broken, especially on hard+ - everyone will declare war on you and never peace out - including your allies and countries on the other side of the world

I always use my mod to remove forts, so that fixes the first problem. Naval battles can be somewhat minimized depending on playstyle. I was never able to fix the final one, even though I was leading Empire Total War diplomatic data decoding efforts decade ago. We managed to make AI numbers more reasonable, but somehow AI acted pretty much the same anyway.

But it turns out there's a way, which I somehow never heard of before, that just involves piles of cheese with military access. It has 3 parts:

• AI massively overvalues getting military access to your land, and is willing to pay a lot for it - we'll be using that for sure
• AI will be much less likely to attack you if it has military access to your lands - this is how we'll fix diplomacy, by toning down AI aggressiveness and backstabbiness to reasonable levels; this doesn't guarantee safety, just tones it down a few notches
• you can repeatedly cancel military access and sell it again without repercussions, taking all their money - this is way too exploity for me, and I will absolutely not be doing that

I'm going for some of the achievements I don't have yet:

• conquer Americas
• conquer Europe
• research all tech
• win game at hard

I have one for India from some past game, probably as Marathas.

I never "won" the game, as conditions are to conquer some lands, and then hold them until 1799, which I never bothered with. But I might do just that this time.

Mods for this:

• my no forts mod
• Additional Units mod
• halfway through I added dry weather mod, that massively reduces battle weather effects, it's mostly visual

Starting position

So United Provinces, the only republic major in the game, it starts with 4 provinces in 3 theaters:

• Curacao and Dutch Guyana in Americas
• Netherlands in Europe
• Ceylon in India

Each will be fighting its wars pretty much separately, as sending troops between them takes very long time.

My traditional opening as anyone who can is rushing pirates. Pirates have 2 islands, one with fairly easy 2 Pirate Mobs units, and capital with much harder 7 Pirate Mob units. Destroying them eliminates their 20 or so ships harassing trade ships all over the world.

I started by a naval battle of 1 Sloop vs pirate 2 Brigs and 1 Sloop, which was super easy, just a bit tedious. Even with me trying my best to minimize such battles, there's a lot more where that came from.

1 vs 3 - Super Easy, Barely An Inconvenience!

Then I landed 1 Militia and 1 recruited General on Trinidad & Tobago to deal with the first pirate enclave. It was defended by 2 Pirate Mobs, each better than a Militia even on normal. This was somewhat questionable move on my side, and I should have probably recruited second General.

With that out of the way, I allied Hannover and Westphalia, sold them military access, and broke starting alliance with Austria to avoid getting dragged into their stupid wars.

I declared war on Spanish protectorate New Spain, which brought me into state of war with Spain without including France. I need to get Flanders to have any hope for security.

Then I gave all great powers except Mughals and Spain free military access to my lands, so I might get attacked less.

After that I destroyed weavers' workshop in Ceylon to build my second university there. And that was a good first turn.

French attack

France attacked me turn one anyway. Free military access is supposed to tone down AI aggressiveness a notch, but it's not an exploit. This attacks looks totally reasonable, if I was France I'd have attacked Netherlands for sure.

I wanted to destroy the pirates, but their second province looked awkwardly strong, so I took some French islands instead first.

All that French nonsense caused so many delays. I really planned to start this campaign by recruiting some army in Ceylon and invading the Mughals. That will need to wait.

After inflicting sufficient losses on them on the land and on the sea, France decided to accept white peace.

I was then able to destroy the Pirates, and that was a really hard fight. They had 7 garrison troops, each a bit better than Militia. I gathered all my New World force - 2 Line Infantry, 1 Hessian mercs, 2 Militia, and 2 generals, all depleted from fighting the French. And that was extremely close victory.

So far:

• in Europe - Netherlands and Flanders
• in India - still just Ceylon
• in New World - Dutch Guyana, French Guyana, Curacao, Trinidad & Tobago, Martinique, Antigua.

Invasion of Mughal India

Spain still wouldn't accept a peace deal, so I kept attacking their New World islands. Eventually they got tired of it, and offered peace deal. That didn't include their New Spain holdings, but New Spain got magically annexed by Spain at some point, so that other war was over too.

A much more important thing is that I finally had some breathing space to invade India before Mughals completely collapse.

Landing in Orissa and Bengal and then moving West, I took 6 regions - a band through Central India from Bengal to Gujarat, peaced them out, and I finally had peace with everyone (not counting Barbary States). All without firing a single cannister shot yet, just with trashy starting units and trashy fixed artillery firing just cannister shots.

Second Mughal War

That peace of course lasted just a few minutes. My New World army had nothing better to do, so I attacked some natives. That's always nice, as attacking natives never leads to any naval combat, and their units are different from Europeans, so it's good variety.

For side note, Empire massively nerfs tax income based on number of provinces you have. It's a weird system. Eventually it goes to -80% when you conquer the map of 140 provinces, but it goes aggressively up for mid-sized empires, and you get -20% at mere 10, -30% at 20, -40% at 30 provinces, and -50% at 50 provinces.

So by mid-game it makes sense to rely mostly on trade. And so I've been spamming trade ships like crazy.

In India I needed a few turns to reorganize army and deal with unrest. I sort of wanted to go South to fight Marathas, but they had way too many ships, as well as way too many armies for a fast finish, so it would mean endless naval battles. I attacked Mughals the second time instead.

Cherokee and Mughal capitals were at -30 unrest so they'd both need babysitting for a while.

Just as I was about to strike the final blow and take Kashmir, Spain declared war on me. Only getting declared twice by 1709, I'm pretty sure selling military access makes a big difference.

Also 25 regions taken, 115 to go.

My still mostly trash army advancing on Mughal city

War with Spain

War with Spain was annoying, as I now had my trade ships everywhere, basically unprotected, and Spanish fleet was huge. On the other hand, their fleet was mainly located near Spain, so they didn't actually harass my traders too much.

European powers were all really busy fighting each other, so they'd hopefully leave me alone. Even not counting wars with minors:

• France vs Austria, Britain
• Spain vs Austria, Britain
• Britain vs Spain, France,, Poland
• Poland vs Austria, Sweden, Britain
• Austria vs Spain, France, Poland, and Prussia
• Prussia vs Austria, Poland
• Sweden vs Poland, Russia
• Russia vs Ottomans, Sweden
• Ottomans vs Russia

They rarely got any territory, and then it usually was lost a while later, but they were constantly raiding each other's ports and sinking ships. Every ship sunk is one I don't have to deal with.

The Iroquois declared surprise war on me. I guess I never offered them military access, and I didn't even notice I now had a border with them. I bribed them with some techs to go away, as it really was completely off my way.

I grabbed 3 Spanish colonies - all garbage land, but I'm going for World Conquest here.

Beyond provinces, game also has 20 naval trade nodes, and I got 14 of them before it even became crowded. I grabbed 2 from Spain in this war. France, Marathas, Ottomans, and Persia have remaining ones, and Persia lost their only port to Ottomans so they're just wasting that node. As things progress from this point, I kept losing them whenever anyone tried to attack them with a real fleet, as I have no patience for that, and then I kept gaining them whenever a country got destroyed. So my control level was close to 14/20 for quite a while.

All that plus a big bribe in form of technology transfer convinced the Spanish that they don't need this fight.

Conquest of France

I wanted to peace out Spain as I had something far more important to do - destroy France.

Battle of Paris, which looks a lot smaller than I expected it to be.

French armies go into battle conveniently carrying white flags.

Paris fell in two easy battles as French troops were mostly sitting in Alsace, but then I had a nice big battle between my first full stack, and Alsatian French full stack.

I thought that would be it, standard take two provinces destroy France, but amazingly France took Algiers a while back and moved their capital there. I did not consider that at all.

I took New Orleans, and that somehow got -30 resistance as major settlement. That's baffling. Capitals of majors get -30, minor settlements get -13, but sometimes there's weird exception, and capitals of minors can go either way. Like that used to be capital of Louisiana colonial nation before France annexed it, so it somehow counts as capital of major power? Annoying.

Especially because in France there's like +16 worth of happiness buildings, and New Orleans is just some alligator infested swamp with nothing of value except port to export cotton and tobacco.

Soon after, France mysteriously lost Algiers, which flipped to Barbary States. I'm not sure if Barbary States got it, or it was just their rebels.

That was some peace and quiet again, not counting my inactive wars with Poland, Barbary States, and assorted rebels.

Conquest of Italy and Canada

I had 3 armies, all on rebel duty:

• New World army which had 2 fake "major" settlements to babysit, so it was stuck for a while
• Indian army only had two ways to go - Persia which was garbage land, or rich South India currently controlled by Marathas, who were far stronger than them
• European army, which was babysitting France at first, but that was surprisingly easy due to all the happiness buildings in France

Indian army would need major reinforcements to do anything, so I let them rest for a while. I disbanded trash units, to be replaced by proper troops.

New World army got a new job invading Canada, which turned into rebels when France collapsed, with exception of one province Quebec.

France's -30 unrest was mostly cancelled by all the happiness buildings, so my European army could march on Italian minors with little opposition.

I let rebels take over Lower Louisiana, hoping that would wipe out its damn -30 unrest when I recaptured it. It did not.

Sweden attacked my ally Hannover, and I declined to join their war, as that would be really annoying new front. Also they did not come to my aid back when I was attacked by France so screw them. Prussia attacked my other ally Westphalia, and I declined the same way.

I finally got Fire by Rank in 1715 (definitely did not rush that like I should), and quickly wrecked Genoa, Savoy, Pope, and Malta, getting me four new shitty -30 unrest provinces to babysit. Of them only Rome had enough happiness buildings to have any hope of fast end of this. In either case, al my European troops were stuck there for a while, so switching to other theaters for a few years.

Half of my New World army got "Agvituk, Montagnais" from the Inuit, and that was -30 unrest province. Very heavy polar bear resistance.

The other half sailed up to Great Lakes, sadly they're not connected to the ocean, so it took slow walk to deal with some natives, and another -30 unrest province.

Conquest of South India

At that point my European and new World armies were mostly stuck on rebel duty, so it was time to look back at India.

This was long overdue, as I was 6 provinces away from conquering the whole damn thing and then I'd no longer to maintain any army there. Selling Marathas and Mysore military access did something to stop them from attacking, but that was not guaranteed, so if I had no army there, they'd probably attack me and that would be a huge mess.

Marathas and Mysore together outnumbered my Indian army by 3:1, and somehow managed to recruit real troops not peasant trash. In other words super easy, barely an inconvenience. In opening battle I deployed 1856 against their 2136, and losses were 382 mine vs 1985 theirs, fairly typical for hard/hard.

Battle against Marathas full stack standing on my border.

I had 24 cannons vs their 16. Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie Cavalry charged their artillery to achieve artillery superiority, taking heavy losses.

Marathas attacked my right flank, and then the whole battle turned into huge chaos.

Mostly Artillery does the damage, Line Infantry holds the line, and Cavalry makes sure nobody runs away to fight another day, but many more interesting situations happen

Some keys to a good fight:

• I have nice line of infantry and artillery that can win every straight firefight
• AI usually suicides their cavalry trying to charge my lines or prancing around, so usually I have cavalry superiority regardless of how many units we start with (I think it used to be a lot worse in early patches, did AI get at least somewhat better at some point?)
• if AI takes forever to engage, I'll just keep shooting them with my artillery, no rush - this is minority of battles, but it definitely happens sometimes
• my cavalry mainly makes sure broken units running away do not come back, and tries to kill as many as possible
• in some fights I get my cavalry some risky tasks, like charging at enemy artillery or routing low morale units - this costs me tons of horses, but I can achieve some strategic advantage
• I research a lot of unit upgrades, so my units are better thanks to tech; AI wastes their research on navy and such nonsense, and generally just doesn't have enough universities
• in melee just pressing Square Formation makes everyone fight better, even if they're not actually in formation
• if some enemies are running away but their army is still fighting nearby - it's best to let them go; they usually regroup later, but by that time their friends are out of the fight, so it's usually no big deal; impatiently chasing broken units too early just cost too much loses
• I totally love any cavalry units who can shoot - in Europe they are high tech Light Dragoons and such, but in New World there are Mounted Natives who can do that - that's amazing harassment force

There are some weaknesses to this. Inf+Art formation can stand its ground or advance forward, but it takes forever to turn around when attacked. So especially if AI changes me from the side, the other side cannot easily support. It's still a good default.

And of course the best way to destroy enemy army is to take their last settlement - then it disappears. Interestingly it doesn't in most other Total War games, where it would turn to rebels.

I took 3 of 6 remaining regions in initial assault and destroyed a third of Indian armies, but I had to run away as more than two full stacks were chasing just one of my stacks.

Western stack took two settlements with little opposition

Eastern stack destroyed one Marathas stack (leftovers in rice farm East of Hyderabad), then took Hyderabad, and ran back to the river to avoid facing those 2 full stacks to the South East.

I fully expected them to take Hyderabad back and just hoped they'd separate, as fighting 2 full stacks at the same time is just too much.

I thought this war would take a while, but after a few quick naval battles peace was offered. 

Hilariously Marathas instead of taking abandoned region back, or chasing my armies just offered me peace if I gave them some techs. Then Mysore paid me money for another peace. I guess than works.

So by 1719 I have 45/140 regions. Game lasts until 1799, so plenty of time to world conquest.

I have 31 of 79 techs I can research, with most other powers being somewhere around 13. Not like such counting matters terribly much - Cannister Shot and Fire By Rank are the only true game changers, everything else is a minor military or economic bonus.

I'll keep playing this campaign over the next few weeks, as it's quite fun, but it's still like 100-200 battles to finish world conquest.

Overextension is just a number

It's an interesting question how well EU4 matches history. So I loaded EU4 history files, and checked - how much overextension would various countries have.

I'm counting all change of ownership events by their year only, except when province becomes colonized, assuming every overextension event lasts exactly 3 whole years.

As some situations are ambiguous, I did the simplest possible thing and notably did not consider:

• integrating subjects
• forming new countries (like Commonwealth or Russia)
• core reconquest
• getting free cores through independence
• administrative efficiency
• any special treatment of colonial nations, as they're treated as part of parent nation in history files
• only years where a country had 100% or higher OE are given

This way the list doesn't miss anything, even if it has some entries that probably shouldn't be there.

As you can see, overextension is just a number, and you should never be afraid to go over 100% or 753% for that matter (the record of 839% for Spain is a false positive).

So here's the list, with affected country, total OE, and previous owners:

• Afghanistan 1747 - 119% - Baluchistan 9%, Mughals 3%, Persia 107%
• Afghanistan 1748 - 119% - Baluchistan 9%, Mughals 3%, Persia 107%
• Afghanistan 1749 - 119% - Baluchistan 9%, Mughals 3%, Persia 107%
• Afghanistan 1752 - 135% - Bukhara 24%, Mughals 91%, Persia 20%
• Afghanistan 1753 - 115% - Bukhara 24%, Mughals 91%
• Annam 1802 - 103% - Dai Viet 103%
• Annam 1803 - 103% - Dai Viet 103%
• Annam 1804 - 103% - Dai Viet 103%
• Aq Qoyunlu 1469 - 363% - Baluchistan 10%, Bitlis 19%, Kharabakh 9%, Qara Qoyunlu 295%, Timurids 30%
• Aq Qoyunlu 1470 - 363% - Baluchistan 10%, Bitlis 19%, Kharabakh 9%, Qara Qoyunlu 295%, Timurids 30%
• Aq Qoyunlu 1471 - 295% - Baluchistan 10%, Bitlis 19%, Qara Qoyunlu 236%, Timurids 30%
• Aragon 1503 - 102% - France 91%, Naples 11%
• Aragon 1504 - 102% - France 91%, Naples 11%
• Austria 1458 - 104% - Bregenz 5%, Croatia 6%, Styria 93%
• Austria 1477 - 213% - Brabant 56%, Burgundy 73%, Flanders 42%, Holland 42%
• Austria 1478 - 213% - Brabant 56%, Burgundy 73%, Flanders 42%, Holland 42%
• Austria 1479 - 213% - Brabant 56%, Burgundy 73%, Flanders 42%, Holland 42%
• Austria 1526 - 283% - Bohemia 128%, Croatia 19%, Glogow 10%, Hungary 113%, Opole 13%
• Austria 1527 - 283% - Bohemia 128%, Croatia 19%, Glogow 10%, Hungary 113%, Opole 13%
• Austria 1528 - 283% - Bohemia 128%, Croatia 19%, Glogow 10%, Hungary 113%, Opole 13%
• Austria 1620 - 136% - Bohemia 136%
• Austria 1621 - 136% - Bohemia 136%
• Austria 1622 - 136% - Bohemia 136%
• Austria 1699 - 103% - Ottomans 68%, Transylvania 35%
• Austria 1700 - 103% - Ottomans 68%, Transylvania 35%
• Austria 1701 - 103% - Ottomans 68%, Transylvania 35%
• Austria 1704 - 113% - Bavaria 102%, Passau 11%
• Austria 1705 - 113% - Bavaria 102%, Passau 11%
• Austria 1706 - 113% - Bavaria 102%, Passau 11%
• Austria 1713 - 133% - Netherlands 49%, Spain 84%
• Austria 1714 - 306% - Netherlands 49%, Sicily 25%, Spain 232%
• Austria 1715 - 306% - Netherlands 49%, Sicily 25%, Spain 232%
• Austria 1716 - 173% - Sicily 25%, Spain 148%
• Austria 1718 - 152% - Naples 55%, Ottomans 51%, Wallachia 46%
• Austria 1719 - 152% - Naples 55%, Ottomans 51%, Wallachia 46%
• Austria 1720 - 117% - Naples 55%, Ottomans 16%, Wallachia 46%
• Austria 1797 - 166% - Commonwealth 56%, Venice 110%
• Austria 1798 - 110% - Venice 110%
• Austria 1799 - 110% - Venice 110%
• Austria 1814 - 315% - Bavaria 57%, France 70%, Italy 188%
• Austria 1815 - 315% - Bavaria 57%, France 70%, Italy 188%
• Austria 1816 - 316% - Bavaria 67%, France 61%, Italy 188%
• Bavaria 1714 - 113% - Austria 113%
• Bavaria 1715 - 113% - Austria 113%
• Bavaria 1716 - 113% - Austria 113%
• Bengal 1526 - 120% - Delhi 100%, Tirhut 20%
• Bengal 1527 - 100% - Delhi 100%
• Bengal 1528 - 100% - Delhi 100%
• Bengal 1540 - 332% - Mughals 332%
• Bengal 1541 - 332% - Mughals 332%
• Bengal 1542 - 332% - Mughals 332%
• Bengal 1543 - 105% - Gujarat 26%, Gwalior 8%, Hadoti 10%, Malwa 53%, Marwar 8%
• Bengal 1544 - 244% - Dhundhar 13%, Gujarat 35%, Gwalior 8%, Hadoti 15%, Jaisalmer 3%, Jangladesh 6%, Malwa 53%, Marwar 8%, Mewar 10%, Mughals 30%, Sindh 63%
• Bengal 1545 - 244% - Dhundhar 13%, Gujarat 35%, Gwalior 8%, Hadoti 15%, Jaisalmer 3%, Jangladesh 6%, Malwa 53%, Marwar 8%, Mewar 10%, Mughals 30%, Sindh 63%
• Bengal 1546 - 139% - Dhundhar 13%, Gujarat 9%, Hadoti 5%, Jaisalmer 3%, Jangladesh 6%, Mewar 10%, Mughals 30%, Sindh 63%
• Bengal 1707 - 244% - Mughals 244%
• Bengal 1708 - 244% - Mughals 244%
• Bengal 1709 - 244% - Mughals 244%
• Bohemia 1618 - 151% - Austria 151%
• Bohemia 1619 - 151% - Austria 151%
• Bohemia 1620 - 151% - Austria 151%
• Bukhara 1502 - 115% - Timurids 36%, Uzbek 79%
• Bukhara 1503 - 115% - Timurids 36%, Uzbek 79%
• Bukhara 1504 - 133% - Timurids 36%, Uzbek 79%, Yarkand 18%
• Bukhara 1507 - 139% - Khorasan 134%, Sistan 5%
• Bukhara 1508 - 139% - Khorasan 134%, Sistan 5%
• Burgundy 1475 - 104% - Friesland 24%, Gelre 29%, Lorraine 32%, Provence 19%
• Colombia 1810 - 156% - Spain 156%
• Colombia 1811 - 156% - Spain 156%
• Colombia 1812 - 156% - Spain 156%
• Colombia 1819 - 146% - Spain 30%, Venezuela 116%
• Colombia 1820 - 146% - Spain 30%, Venezuela 116%
• Colombia 1821 - 146% - Spain 30%, Venezuela 116%
• Commonwealth 1569 - 506% - Lithuania 204%, Poland 302%
• Commonwealth 1570 - 506% - Lithuania 204%, Poland 302%
• Commonwealth 1571 - 506% - Lithuania 204%, Poland 302%
• Deccan 1724 - 279% - Mughals 279%
• Deccan 1725 - 279% - Mughals 279%
• Deccan 1726 - 279% - Mughals 279%
• Delhi 1451 - 112% - Kashmir 7%, Sirhind 105%
• Delhi 1452 - 159% - Jaunpur 47%, Kashmir 7%, Sirhind 105%
• Delhi 1453 - 152% - Jaunpur 47%, Sirhind 105%
• Delhi 1486 - 152% - Jaunpur 152%
• Delhi 1487 - 152% - Jaunpur 152%
• Delhi 1488 - 152% - Jaunpur 152%
• Delhi 1553 - 146% - Bengal 146%
• Delhi 1554 - 146% - Bengal 146%
• Delhi 1555 - 146% - Bengal 146%
• Dzungar 1740 - 127% - Kazakh 127%
• Dzungar 1741 - 127% - Kazakh 127%
• Dzungar 1742 - 127% - Kazakh 127%
• France 1477 - 103% - Burgundy 103%
• France 1478 - 103% - Burgundy 103%
• France 1479 - 103% - Burgundy 103%
• France 1499 - 112% - Geneva 13%, Genoa 38%, Savoy 53%, Switzerland 8%
• France 1500 - 112% - Geneva 13%, Genoa 38%, Savoy 53%, Switzerland 8%
• France 1501 - 112% - Geneva 13%, Genoa 38%, Savoy 53%, Switzerland 8%
• France 1504 - 177% - Milan 86%, Naples 91%
• France 1796 - 113% - Austria 50%, Bavaria 51%, Sardinia-Piedmont 12%
• France 1797 - 314% - Aachen 14%, Austria 139%, Bavaria 43%, Liege 27%, Prussia 14%, Sardinia-Piedmont 22%, Trier 22%, Venice 33%
• France 1798 - 275% - Aachen 14%, Austria 89%, Bavaria 43%, Liege 27%, Prussia 14%, Sardinia-Piedmont 33%, Trier 22%, Venice 33%
• France 1799 - 220% - Aachen 14%, Austria 89%, Liege 27%, Prussia 14%, Sardinia-Piedmont 21%, Trier 22%, Venice 33%
• France 1801 - 163% - Cologne 27%, Mainz 10%, Parma 15%, Spain 34%, Tuscany 77%
• France 1802 - 173% - Cologne 27%, Great Britain 10%, Mainz 10%, Parma 15%, Spain 34%, Tuscany 77%
• France 1803 - 129% - Cologne 27%, Great Britain 10%, Parma 15%, Tuscany 77%
• France 1805 - 106% - Austria 40%, Genoa 38%, Lucca 14%, Prussia 14%
• France 1806 - 106% - Austria 40%, Genoa 38%, Lucca 14%, Prussia 14%
• France 1807 - 208% - Austria 40%, Corfu 11%, Etruria 77%, Genoa 38%, Lucca 14%, Prussia 14%, Ragusa 14%
• France 1808 - 111% - Berg 9%, Corfu 11%, Etruria 77%, Ragusa 14%
• France 1809 - 166% - Austria 9%, Berg 9%, Corfu 11%, Etruria 77%, Ragusa 14%, The Papal State 46%
• France 1810 - 383% - Austria 9%, Berg 9%, Denmark 20%, Hamburg 19%, Italy 21%, Lübeck 19%, Netherlands 211%, Oldenburg 7%, The Papal State 46%, Westphalia 22%
• France 1811 - 390% - Austria 9%, Bremen 16%, Denmark 20%, Hamburg 19%, Italy 21%, Lübeck 19%, Netherlands 211%, Oldenburg 7%, The Papal State 46%, Westphalia 22%
• France 1812 - 335% - Bremen 16%, Denmark 20%, Hamburg 19%, Italy 21%, Lübeck 19%, Netherlands 211%, Oldenburg 7%, Westphalia 22%
• Great Britain 1707 - 749% - England 658%, Scotland 91%
• Great Britain 1708 - 749% - England 658%, Scotland 91%
• Great Britain 1709 - 749% - England 658%, Scotland 91%
• Great Britain 1761 - 105% - Bengal 95%, France 10%
• Great Britain 1762 - 105% - Bengal 95%, France 10%
• Great Britain 1763 - 292% - Abenaki 6%, Creek 7%, Fox 3%, France 260%, Potawatomi 4%, Spain 12%
• Great Britain 1764 - 282% - Abenaki 6%, Creek 7%, Fox 3%, France 250%, Potawatomi 4%, Spain 12%
• Great Britain 1765 - 413% - Abenaki 6%, Assam 6%, Bengal 125%, Creek 7%, Fox 3%, France 250%, Potawatomi 4%, Spain 12%
• Great Britain 1766 - 182% - Assam 6%, Bengal 125%, Deccan 48%, France 3%
• Great Britain 1767 - 182% - Assam 6%, Bengal 125%, Deccan 48%, France 3%
• Great Britain 1801 - 212% - Carnatic 58%, Deccan 24%, Gwalior 9%, Marathas 26%, Mysore 48%, Oudh 47%
• Great Britain 1802 - 211% - Carnatic 58%, Deccan 24%, Gwalior 9%, Kandy 7%, Marathas 26%, Netherlands 30%, Oudh 47%, Spain 10%
• Great Britain 1803 - 311% - Carnatic 58%, Gwalior 74%, Kandy 7%, Marathas 27%, Nagpur 58%, Netherlands 30%, Oudh 47%, Spain 10%
• Great Britain 1804 - 187% - Gwalior 65%, Kandy 7%, Marathas 17%, Nagpur 58%, Netherlands 30%, Spain 10%
• Great Britain 1805 - 140% - Gwalior 65%, Marathas 17%, Nagpur 58%
• Great Britain 1818 - 240% - Baroda 31%, Gwalior 23%, Marathas 127%, Nagpur 50%, Nepal 9%
• Great Britain 1819 - 203% - Baroda 31%, Gwalior 23%, Kutch 3%, Marathas 127%, Nagpur 19%
• Great Britain 1820 - 194% - Baroda 22%, Gwalior 23%, Kutch 3%, Marathas 127%, Nagpur 19%
• Italy 1805 - 149% - Austria 86%, The Papal State 63%
• Italy 1806 - 149% - Austria 86%, The Papal State 63%
• Italy 1807 - 149% - Austria 86%, The Papal State 63%
• Jaunpur 1553 - 152% - Bengal 152%
• Jaunpur 1554 - 152% - Bengal 152%
• Jaunpur 1555 - 152% - Bengal 152%
• Kazakh 1755 - 122% - Dzungar 122%
• Kazakh 1756 - 122% - Dzungar 122%
• Kazakh 1757 - 122% - Dzungar 122%
• Khorasan 1449 - 159% - Afghanistan 47%, Timurids 112%
• Khorasan 1450 - 153% - Afghanistan 47%, Timurids 106%
• Khorasan 1451 - 172% - Afghanistan 47%, Ajam 19%, Timurids 106%
• La Plata 1816 - 125% - Spain 125%
• La Plata 1817 - 125% - Spain 125%
• La Plata 1818 - 125% - Spain 125%
• Manchu 1616 - 189% - Donghai 34%, Jianzhou 142%, Udege 13%
• Manchu 1617 - 189% - Donghai 34%, Jianzhou 142%, Udege 13%
• Manchu 1618 - 189% - Donghai 34%, Jianzhou 142%, Udege 13%
• Mexico 1810 - 681% - Lipan 3%, Spain 678%
• Mexico 1811 - 681% - Lipan 3%, Spain 678%
• Mexico 1812 - 681% - Lipan 3%, Spain 678%
• Ming 1648 - 154% - Qing 154%
• Ming 1649 - 184% - Qing 184%
• Ming 1650 - 184% - Qing 184%
• Morocco 1549 - 167% - Fez 56%, Tafilalt 83%, Tlemcen 28%
• Morocco 1550 - 167% - Fez 56%, Tafilalt 83%, Tlemcen 28%
• Morocco 1551 - 167% - Fez 56%, Tafilalt 83%, Tlemcen 28%
• Morocco 1668 - 107% - Tafilalt 107%
• Morocco 1669 - 107% - Tafilalt 107%
• Morocco 1670 - 130% - Sus 23%, Tafilalt 107%
• Mughals 1526 - 369% - Delhi 220%, Timurids 149%
• Mughals 1527 - 400% - Delhi 220%, Gwalior 8%, Sindh 23%, Timurids 149%
• Mughals 1528 - 438% - Bengal 38%, Delhi 220%, Gwalior 8%, Sindh 23%, Timurids 149%
• Mughals 1554 - 119% - Punjab 10%, Sirhind 109%
• Mughals 1555 - 249% - Delhi 130%, Punjab 10%, Sirhind 109%
• Mughals 1556 - 249% - Delhi 130%, Punjab 10%, Sirhind 109%
• Mughals 1557 - 153% - Delhi 130%, Multan 23%
• Mughals 1558 - 129% - Delhi 16%, Jaunpur 90%, Multan 23%
• Mughals 1559 - 129% - Delhi 16%, Jaunpur 90%, Multan 23%
• Mughals 1560 - 106% - Delhi 16%, Jaunpur 90%
• Mughals 1574 - 121% - Baglana 6%, Gujarat 73%, Navanagar 5%, Porbandar 5%, Sindh 32%
• Mughals 1575 - 178% - Baglana 6%, Bengal 57%, Gujarat 73%, Navanagar 5%, Porbandar 5%, Sindh 32%
• Mughals 1576 - 253% - Bengal 213%, Bishnupur 8%, Sindh 32%
• Mughals 1577 - 221% - Bengal 213%, Bishnupur 8%
• Mughals 1578 - 164% - Bengal 156%, Bishnupur 8%
• Mughals 1686 - 120% - Bijapur 120%
• Mughals 1687 - 254% - Bijapur 120%, Golkonda 134%
• Mughals 1688 - 254% - Bijapur 120%, Golkonda 134%
• Mughals 1689 - 134% - Golkonda 134%
• Muscovy 1478 - 128% - Novgorod 128%
• Muscovy 1479 - 128% - Novgorod 128%
• Muscovy 1480 - 128% - Novgorod 128%
• Naples 1734 - 157% - Austria 157%
• Naples 1735 - 157% - Austria 157%
• Naples 1736 - 157% - Austria 157%
• Netherlands 1549 - 178% - Spain 178%
• Netherlands 1550 - 178% - Spain 178%
• Netherlands 1551 - 178% - Spain 178%
• Netherlands 1813 - 204% - France 204%
• Netherlands 1814 - 204% - France 204%
• Netherlands 1815 - 362% - France 345%, Great Britain 17%
• Netherlands 1816 - 158% - France 141%, Great Britain 17%
• Netherlands 1817 - 158% - France 141%, Great Britain 17%
• Ottomans 1516 - 208% - Dulkadir 23%, Fadl 11%, Hisn Kayfa 6%, Mamluks 119%, Persia 49%
• Ottomans 1517 - 349% - Fadl 11%, Mamluks 324%, Persia 14%
• Ottomans 1518 - 349% - Fadl 11%, Mamluks 324%, Persia 14%
• Ottomans 1519 - 205% - Mamluks 205%
• Ottomans 1536 - 100% - Persia 100%
• Ottomans 1537 - 100% - Persia 100%
• Ottomans 1538 - 182% - Mamluks 46%, Mikhlaf 7%, Persia 118%, Yemen 11%
• Ottomans 1540 - 104% - Dongola 6%, Mamluks 46%, Mikhlaf 7%, Persia 18%, Venice 16%, Yemen 11%
• Ottomans 1590 - 122% - Persia 122%
• Ottomans 1591 - 122% - Persia 122%
• Ottomans 1592 - 122% - Persia 122%
• Oudh 1724 - 115% - Mughals 115%
• Oudh 1725 - 115% - Mughals 115%
• Oudh 1726 - 115% - Mughals 115%
• Persia 1501 - 103% - Aq Qoyunlu 68%, Ardabil 9%, Shirvan 26%
• Persia 1502 - 103% - Aq Qoyunlu 68%, Ardabil 9%, Shirvan 26%
• Persia 1503 - 103% - Aq Qoyunlu 68%, Ardabil 9%, Shirvan 26%
• Persia 1504 - 193% - Aq Qoyunlu 185%, Mushasha 8%
• Persia 1505 - 193% - Aq Qoyunlu 185%, Mushasha 8%
• Persia 1506 - 193% - Aq Qoyunlu 185%, Mushasha 8%
• Persia 1507 - 155% - Aq Qoyunlu 155%
• Persia 1508 - 189% - Aq Qoyunlu 155%, Mushasha 34%
• Persia 1509 - 189% - Aq Qoyunlu 155%, Mushasha 34%
• Persia 1510 - 137% - Bukhara 103%, Mushasha 34%
• Persia 1511 - 103% - Bukhara 103%
• Persia 1512 - 103% - Bukhara 103%
• Persia 1612 - 116% - Ottomans 116%
• Persia 1613 - 116% - Ottomans 116%
• Persia 1614 - 116% - Ottomans 116%
• Persia 1739 - 100% - Bukhara 24%, Mughals 76%
• Persia 1741 - 123% - Khiva 9%, Mughals 76%, Oman 38%
• Poland 1807 - 166% - Austria 56%, Prussia 110%
• Poland 1808 - 166% - Austria 56%, Prussia 110%
• Poland 1809 - 166% - Austria 56%, Prussia 110%
• Prussia 1701 - 188% - Brandenburg 188%
• Prussia 1702 - 188% - Brandenburg 188%
• Prussia 1703 - 188% - Brandenburg 188%
• Prussia 1795 - 111% - Commonwealth 111%
• Prussia 1813 - 133% - Berg 23%, France 7%, Westphalia 103%
• Prussia 1814 - 259% - Berg 23%, Danzig 16%, France 51%, Hanover 7%, Poland 59%, Westphalia 103%
• Prussia 1815 - 380% - Berg 35%, Danzig 16%, Denmark 29%, France 78%, Hanover 16%, Poland 59%, Saxony 44%, Westphalia 103%
• Prussia 1816 - 247% - Berg 12%, Danzig 16%, Denmark 29%, France 71%, Hanover 16%, Poland 59%, Saxony 44%
• Prussia 1817 - 121% - Berg 12%, Denmark 29%, France 27%, Hanover 9%, Saxony 44%
• Qara Qoyunlu 1451 - 150% - Ajam 150%
• Qara Qoyunlu 1452 - 139% - Ajam 139%
• Qara Qoyunlu 1453 - 144% - Ajam 139%, Khorasan 5%
• Qing 1636 - 413% - Manchu 413%
• Qing 1637 - 413% - Manchu 413%
• Qing 1638 - 413% - Manchu 413%
• Qing 1644 - 202% - Ming 20%, Shun 182%
• Qing 1645 - 613% - Ming 246%, Shun 348%, Xi 19%
• Qing 1646 - 753% - Ming 365%, Shun 348%, Xi 40%
• Qing 1647 - 697% - Ming 491%, Shun 166%, Xi 40%
• Qing 1648 - 286% - Ming 265%, Xi 21%
• Qing 1649 - 206% - Ming 206%
• Qing 1650 - 169% - Ming 169%
• Qing 1651 - 198% - Ming 198%
• Qing 1652 - 138% - Ming 138%
• Qing 1659 - 101% - Ming 41%, Xi 60%
• Qing 1660 - 101% - Ming 41%, Xi 60%
• Qing 1681 - 250% - Zhou 250%
• Qing 1682 - 250% - Zhou 250%
• Qing 1683 - 260% - Ming 10%, Zhou 250%
• Qing 1697 - 117% - Dzungar 117%
• Qing 1698 - 117% - Dzungar 117%
• Russia 1503 - 411% - Lithuania 14%, Muscovy 389%, Ryazan 8%
• Russia 1504 - 411% - Lithuania 14%, Muscovy 389%, Ryazan 8%
• Russia 1505 - 437% - Lithuania 14%, Muscovy 389%, Perm 26%, Ryazan 8%
• Russia 1552 - 138% - Kazan 132%, Nogai 6%
• Russia 1553 - 138% - Kazan 132%, Nogai 6%
• Russia 1554 - 138% - Kazan 132%, Nogai 6%
• Russia 1722 - 106% - Persia 34%, Sweden 72%
• Russia 1723 - 106% - Persia 34%, Sweden 72%
• Russia 1795 - 165% - Commonwealth 152%, Kurland 13%
• Russia 1796 - 103% - Commonwealth 90%, Kurland 13%
• Russia 1797 - 103% - Commonwealth 90%, Kurland 13%
• Russia 1814 - 130% - Armenia 6%, Kharabakh 9%, Moldavia 17%, Ottomans 11%, Poland 87%
• Russia 1815 - 102% - Armenia 6%, Kharabakh 9%, Poland 87%
• Sardinia-Piedmont 1720 - 105% - Austria 21%, Sicily 84%
• Sardinia-Piedmont 1721 - 105% - Austria 21%, Sicily 84%
• Sardinia-Piedmont 1722 - 105% - Austria 21%, Sicily 84%
• Sardinia-Piedmont 1814 - 147% - France 147%
• Sardinia-Piedmont 1815 - 147% - France 147%
• Sardinia-Piedmont 1816 - 147% - France 147%
• Shun 1644 - 348% - Ming 348%
• Shun 1645 - 348% - Ming 348%
• Shun 1646 - 285% - Ming 285%
• Sirhind 1553 - 109% - Bengal 109%
• Sirhind 1554 - 109% - Bengal 109%
• Sirhind 1555 - 109% - Bengal 109%
• Spain 1516 - 839% - Aragon 323%, Castile 516%
• Spain 1517 - 839% - Aragon 323%, Castile 516%
• Spain 1518 - 839% - Aragon 323%, Castile 516%
• Spain 1519 - 256% - Austria 251%, Aztec 5%
• Spain 1520 - 283% - Austria 251%, Aztec 5%, Tlaxcala 27%
• Spain 1521 - 421% - Austria 251%, Aztec 108%, Butuan 6%, Huastec 3%, Otomi 3%, Tarascan 3%, Teotitlan 7%, Tlaxcala 27%, Tripoli 3%, Tzotzil 10%
• Spain 1522 - 186% - Aztec 103%, Butuan 6%, Huastec 3%, Otomi 3%, Tarascan 3%, Teotitlan 7%, Tlapanec 21%, Tlaxcala 27%, Tripoli 3%, Tzotzil 10%
• Spain 1523 - 200% - Aztec 103%, Butuan 6%, Colima 27%, Huastec 3%, Otomi 3%, Tarascan 17%, Teotitlan 7%, Tlapanec 21%, Tripoli 3%, Tzotzil 10%
• Spain 1524 - 118% - Aztec 10%, Chorti 3%, Colima 27%, Kaqchikel 5%, Kiche 21%, Mixtec 12%, Tarascan 14%, Tlapanec 21%, Zapotec 5%
• Spain 1525 - 110% - Aztec 10%, Chorti 6%, Colima 27%, Kaqchikel 12%, Kiche 21%, Mixtec 12%, Tairona 3%, Tarascan 14%, Zapotec 5%
• Spain 1532 - 118% - Carib 3%, Guamar 6%, Inca 21%, Siena 20%, Tarascan 45%, Tonala 6%, Xalisco 17%
• Spain 1533 - 312% - Carib 3%, Guamar 6%, Inca 248%, Montferrat 12%, Siena 20%, Tonala 6%, Xalisco 17%
• Spain 1534 - 289% - Guamar 6%, Inca 248%, Montferrat 12%, Tonala 6%, Xalisco 17%
• Spain 1535 - 330% - Charrua 7%, Inca 240%, Milan 71%, Montferrat 12%
• Spain 1537 - 120% - Can Pech 7%, Charrua 7%, Inca 35%, Milan 71%
• Taungu 1563 - 157% - Shan 157%
• Taungu 1564 - 177% - Ayutthaya 20%, Shan 157%
• Taungu 1565 - 177% - Ayutthaya 20%, Shan 157%
• Timurids 1448 - 127% - Transoxiana 127%
• Timurids 1449 - 127% - Transoxiana 127%
• Timurids 1450 - 127% - Transoxiana 127%
• Timurids 1458 - 137% - Khorasan 132%, Qara Qoyunlu 5%
• Timurids 1459 - 137% - Khorasan 132%, Qara Qoyunlu 5%
• Timurids 1460 - 113% - Khorasan 108%, Qara Qoyunlu 5%
• Tokugawa 1600 - 201% - Chosokabe 7%, Hosokawa 7%, Ikeda 7%, Mori 48%, Oda 132%
• Tokugawa 1601 - 201% - Chosokabe 7%, Hosokawa 7%, Ikeda 7%, Mori 48%, Oda 132%
• Tokugawa 1602 - 207% - Chosokabe 7%, Hosokawa 7%, Ikeda 7%, Mori 48%, Oda 132%, Satake 6%
• Transoxiana 1409 - 127% - Timurids 127%
• Transoxiana 1410 - 127% - Timurids 127%
• Transoxiana 1411 - 127% - Timurids 127%
• United States 1776 - 282% - Great Britain 282%
• United States 1777 - 282% - Great Britain 282%
• United States 1778 - 290% - Great Britain 290%
• Venezuela 1811 - 116% - Spain 116%
• Venezuela 1812 - 116% - Spain 116%
• Venezuela 1813 - 116% - Spain 116%
• Westphalia 1807 - 256% - Hanover 29%, Hesse 43%, Nassau 9%, Prussia 175%
• Westphalia 1808 - 256% - Hanover 29%, Hesse 43%, Nassau 9%, Prussia 175%
• Westphalia 1809 - 256% - Hanover 29%, Hesse 43%, Nassau 9%, Prussia 175%
• Xi 1644 - 106% - Ming 106%
• Xi 1645 - 106% - Ming 106%
• Zhou 1662 - 257% - Ming 46%, Qing 205%, Xi 6%
• Zhou 1663 - 257% - Ming 46%, Qing 205%, Xi 6%
• Zhou 1664 - 238% - Ming 46%, Qing 186%, Xi 6%

An obvious followup to this question would be how far Aggressive Expansion went, and how many countries would get coalitioned, but that's a much more complicated calculation, even to approximate.

Ranking of all EU4 religions

I used same bonus scoring as with idea groups. There are a few issues with this approach, beyond the usual limitations:

• you can pick any idea groups as any country, not so much with religions
• countries with different idea groups don't hate you
• peasants with different idea groups don't hate you
• religions don't just have static bonuses, usually they have some mechanics, with conditional bonuses, and each works differently
• I only scores persistent bonuses, so Papal interactions (pretty good) and Anglican buttons (awful) are excluded from this
• Counter-Reformation is not counted
• ability to become HRE emperor is not counted
• religions also get custom decisions (Christians get a lot of benefits here), special government types (Muslims get bonuses), ability to take over China (pagans/Eastern), and so on - none of that is scored
• special estates (Hindu / Muslim) are not scored

So I stand behind these rankings less than behind my idea group rankings. Still, it's an interesting exercise.

Summary of results

• S Tier - Fully Reformed New World religions (for above everything else, but you need to get there first)
• A Tier - maxed out Orthodox with icons (hard to achieve early), Ibadi, Catholic as Curia Controller (hard to do reliably)
• B Tier - Sunni, Shiite, maxed out Coptic, more realistic Orthodox, Fetishist + Mazdayasna (really hard to get), Buddhist + neutral karma (basically impossible)
• C Tier - Hindu, Protestant, Hussite, Shinto + Isolationism, Fetishist + most cults, Buddhist + high karma (basically impossible)
• D Tier - everything else
• F Tier - Confucian with low harmony (either harmonizing everything; or converting peasents to your faith will do that)

I'm mostly surprised by how low Hindu got ranked. I'm also really surprised by how well Fetishist is doing, but I was just barely aware of its existence.

All scores

• 7.383500 - Mayan + Tribal Expansion + Reform the Bureaucracy + Central Arbitration + Central Armories + A Unified Army
• 7.183200 - Nahuatl + 0% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks + Extend Pochteca Obligations + Open up Sumptuary Restrictions + Legal Reform
• 7.113500 - Mayan + Tribal Expansion + Reform the Bureaucracy + Central Arbitration + Central Armories
• 7.038800 - Nahuatl + 0% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks + Extend Pochteca Obligations + Open up Sumptuary Restrictions
• 6.980600 - Inti + 100% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy + Yana Lords + Organized Recruitment + Reform the Cult of Inti
• 6.730600 - Inti + 100% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy + Yana Lords + Organized Recruitment
• 6.616700 - Mayan + Tribal Expansion + Reform the Bureaucracy + Central Arbitration
• 6.570000 - Nahuatl + 0% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks + Extend Pochteca Obligations
• 6.444500 - Inti + 50% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy + Yana Lords + Organized Recruitment + Reform the Cult of Inti
• 6.370600 - Inti + 100% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy + Yana Lords
• 6.194500 - Inti + 50% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy + Yana Lords + Organized Recruitment
• 6.183200 - Nahuatl + 50% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks + Extend Pochteca Obligations + Open up Sumptuary Restrictions + Legal Reform
• 6.038800 - Nahuatl + 50% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks + Extend Pochteca Obligations + Open up Sumptuary Restrictions
• 5.908400 - Inti + 0% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy + Yana Lords + Organized Recruitment + Reform the Cult of Inti
• 5.834500 - Inti + 50% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy + Yana Lords
• 5.830600 - Inti + 100% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy
• 5.820000 - Nahuatl + 0% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks
• 5.658400 - Inti + 0% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy + Yana Lords + Organized Recruitment
• 5.616700 - Mayan + Tribal Expansion + Reform the Bureaucracy
• 5.570000 - Nahuatl + 50% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks + Extend Pochteca Obligations
• 5.298400 - Inti + 0% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy + Yana Lords
• 5.294500 - Inti + 50% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy
• 5.183200 - Nahuatl + 100% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks + Extend Pochteca Obligations + Open up Sumptuary Restrictions + Legal Reform
• 5.038800 - Nahuatl + 100% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks + Extend Pochteca Obligations + Open up Sumptuary Restrictions
• 4.820000 - Nahuatl + 50% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks
• 4.772200 - Inti + 100% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy
• 4.758400 - Inti + 0% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy + Reform the Bureaucracy
• 4.740000 - Nahuatl + 0% Doom + Tribal Expansion
• 4.570000 - Nahuatl + 100% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks + Extend Pochteca Obligations
• 4.268700 - Orthodox 100% Patriarchy + Icon of Eleusa
• 4.236100 - Inti + 50% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy
• 4.172200 - Orthodox 100% Patriarchy + Icon of St. Michael
• 3.992000 - Ibadi + Shafi'i + Legalism
• 3.820000 - Nahuatl + 100% Doom + Tribal Expansion + Warrior Ranks
• 3.752200 - Catholic + Curia Controller
• 3.740000 - Nahuatl + 50% Doom + Tribal Expansion
• 3.732200 - Orthodox 100% Patriarchy + Icon of St. Nicholas
• 3.700000 - Inti + 0% Authority + Expanded Mitma Policy
• 3.692000 - Ibadi + Ismaili + Legalism
• 3.656000 - Ibadi + Shafi'i + Mysticism
• 3.576000 - Sunni + Shafi'i + Legalism
• 3.546000 - Shia + Ismaili + Legalism
• 3.532000 - Ibadi + Zaidi + Legalism
• 3.532000 - Ibadi + Jafari + Legalism
• 3.508400 - Coptic + Promote Territorial Rights + Send Monks to Establish Monasteries + Will of the Martyrs + Legitimize Government + Encourage Warriors of the Faith
• 3.500000 - Mayan + Tribal Expansion
• 3.492000 - Ibadi + Hanbali + Legalism
• 3.386000 - Shia + Zaidi + Legalism
• 3.386000 - Shia + Jafari + Legalism
• 3.380000 - Mahayana + Neutral Karma
• 3.375000 - Vajrayana + Neutral Karma
• 3.370000 - Theravada + Neutral Karma
• 3.356000 - Ibadi + Ismaili + Mysticism
• 3.280000 - Fetishist + Mazdayasna
• 3.252000 - Ibadi + Hanafi + Legalism
• 3.240000 - Sunni + Shafi'i + Mysticism
• 3.210000 - Shia + Ismaili + Mysticism
• 3.196000 - Ibadi + Zaidi + Mysticism
• 3.196000 - Ibadi + Jafari + Mysticism
• 3.185900 - Ibadi + Maliki + Legalism
• 3.156000 - Ibadi + Hanbali + Mysticism
• 3.154100 - Orthodox 100% Patriarchy + Icon of Christ Pantocrator
• 3.148400 - Coptic + Promote Territorial Rights + Send Monks to Establish Monasteries + Will of the Martyrs + Legitimize Government
• 3.076000 - Sunni + Hanbali + Legalism
• 3.063700 - Orthodox 50% Patriarchy + Icon of Eleusa
• 3.050000 - Shia + Zaidi + Mysticism
• 3.050000 - Shia + Jafari + Mysticism
• 2.967200 - Orthodox 50% Patriarchy + Icon of St. Michael
• 2.916000 - Ibadi + Hanafi + Mysticism
• 2.852200 - Orthodox 100% Patriarchy + Icon of St. John Climacus
• 2.849900 - Ibadi + Maliki + Mysticism
• 2.836000 - Sunni + Hanafi + Legalism
• 2.820000 - Sikh + Guru Amar Das
• 2.769900 - Sunni + Maliki + Legalism
• 2.740000 - Sunni + Hanbali + Mysticism
• 2.740000 - Nahuatl + 100% Doom + Tribal Expansion
• 2.732200 - Orthodox 100% Patriarchy + No Icon
• 2.698400 - Coptic + Promote Territorial Rights + Send Monks to Establish Monasteries + Will of the Martyrs
• 2.527200 - Orthodox 50% Patriarchy + Icon of St. Nicholas
• 2.500000 - Sunni + Hanafi + Mysticism
• 2.433900 - Sunni + Maliki + Mysticism
• 2.378000 - Hussite + Taborite Resurgence + Sola Scriptura + Bread and Wine
• 2.280000 - Fetishist + Waaq
• 2.280000 - Fetishist + Nyame
• 2.158400 - Coptic + Promote Territorial Rights + Send Monks to Establish Monasteries
• 2.128000 - Protestant + Holy Sacraments + Translated Bibles + Adult Baptism
• 2.100000 - Reformed + Fervent focus on stability
• 1.949100 - Orthodox 50% Patriarchy + Icon of Christ Pantocrator
• 1.927800 - Sikh + Guru Gobind Singh
• 1.910000 - Sikh + Guru Granth Sahib
• 1.900000 - Sikh + Guru Hargobind
• 1.858700 - Orthodox 0% Patriarchy + Icon of Eleusa
• 1.820000 - Fetishist + Mwari
• 1.820000 - Fetishist + Enkai
• 1.820000 - Sikh + Guru Har Rai
• 1.790000 - Hindu + Ganesha
• 1.780000 - Fetishist + Mlira
• 1.762200 - Orthodox 0% Patriarchy + Icon of St. Michael
• 1.748800 - Fetishist + Zanahary
• 1.720000 - Hindu + Shakti
• 1.698400 - Hindu + Shiva
• 1.696000 - Fetishist + Sanatana Dharma
• 1.680000 - Fetishist + Cwezi
• 1.647200 - Orthodox 50% Patriarchy + Icon of St. John Climacus
• 1.590000 - Hindu + Vishnu
• 1.580000 - Tengri + Shinto
• 1.572200 - Inti + 100% Authority
• 1.560000 - Fetishist + Freyja
• 1.550000 - Fetishist + Teotl
• 1.540000 - Shinto + Isolationism (3)
• 1.540000 - Nahuatl + 0% Doom
• 1.527200 - Orthodox 50% Patriarchy + No Icon
• 1.520000 - Fetishist + Haymanot
• 1.473900 - Fetishist + Buddhadharma
• 1.420000 - Sikh + Guru Angad
• 1.408400 - Coptic + Promote Territorial Rights
• 1.400000 - Fetishist + Roog
• 1.380000 - Fetishist + Christianity
• 1.343000 - Fetishist + Yemoja
• 1.322200 - Orthodox 0% Patriarchy + Icon of St. Nicholas
• 1.300000 - Mahayana + High Karma
• 1.295000 - Vajrayana + High Karma
• 1.290000 - Theravada + High Karma
• 1.280000 - Fetishist + Islam
• 1.268000 - Shinto + Selective Integration (2)
• 1.250000 - Tengri + Zoroastrian
• 1.200000 - Shinto + Open Doors (0)
• 1.180400 - Norse + Odin
• 1.152000 - Norse + Tyr
• 1.050000 - Tengri + Catholic
• 1.036100 - Inti + 50% Authority
• 1.020000 - Sikh + Guru Arjan
• 0.998000 - Hindu + Surya
• 0.943900 - Tengri + Theravada
• 0.929600 - Shinto + Closed Doors (4)
• 0.920000 - Sikh + Guru Tegh Bahadur
• 0.900000 - Norse + Snotra
• 0.892200 - Sikh + Guru Ram Das
• 0.840000 - Mahayana + Low Karma
• 0.835000 - Vajrayana + Low Karma
• 0.830000 - Theravada + Low Karma
• 0.820000 - Zoroastrian
• 0.820000 - Sikh + No Guru
• 0.820000 - Sikh + Guru Granth Sahib
• 0.820000 - Confucian + High Harmony
• 0.808000 - Norse + Njord
• 0.770000 - Tengri + Sikh
• 0.760000 - Norse + Freya
• 0.750000 - Totemist
• 0.750000 - Animist
• 0.744100 - Orthodox 0% Patriarchy + Icon of Christ Pantocrator
• 0.740000 - Tengri + Reformed
• 0.733900 - Shinto + Adaptive (1)
• 0.712000 - Norse + Tor
• 0.700000 - Reformed + Fervent focus on war
• 0.633000 - Hindu + Ganga
• 0.600000 - Tengri + Coptic
• 0.592200 - Tengri + Confucian
• 0.580000 - Reformed + Fervent focus on trade
• 0.570000 - Confucian
• 0.568000 - Tengri + Mahayana
• 0.550000 - Jewish
• 0.540000 - Nahuatl + 50% Doom
• 0.530000 - Tengri + Totemist
• 0.530000 - Tengri + Fetishist
• 0.530000 - Tengri + Animist
• 0.510000 - Tengri + Shia
• 0.500000 - Tengri + Protestant
• 0.500000 - Tengri + Inti
• 0.500000 - Tengri + Anglican
• 0.500000 - Inti + 0% Authority
• 0.450000 - Tengri + Orthodox
• 0.442200 - Orthodox 0% Patriarchy + Icon of St. John Climacus
• 0.420100 - Anglican
• 0.350000 - Coptic
• 0.322200 - Orthodox 0% Patriarchy + No Icon
• 0.320000 - Tengri + Sunni
• 0.320000 - Sikh + Guru Har Krishan
• 0.305000 - Tengri + Hindu
• 0.300000 - Tengri + Ibadi
• 0.300000 - Mayan
• 0.290000 - Tengri + Jewish
• 0.270000 - Tengri + Nahuatl
• 0.250000 - Tengri + Vajrayana
• 0.225000 - Catholic
• 0.135000 - Tengri + Hussite
• 0.122200 - Tengri + Mayan
• 0.100000 - Reformed + No Fervor
• 0.041300 - Tengri + Norse
• -0.460000 - Nahuatl + 100% Doom
• -1.164800 - Confucian + Low Harmony

What if all EU4 idea groups unlocked new gameplay

A few days ago I wrote a long post about EU4 idea groups, with some modest proposals how to make game more interesting.

This one is going into far more radical territory. And I doubt it would make game better, at least not without a lot of heavy rebalancing.

So some ideas unlock new playstyles, and these tend to be the most interesting ones. There are minor exceptions to these rules, but

Other ideas just provide bonuses but don't enable anything. They tend to be boring even if strong.

Current Hard Unlocks

If you don't take Exploration, you can't explore the New World. You can wait for maps to passively spread to you, or use Steal Maps, so you can sort of join the colonial race eventually, but Exploration comes quite clock to hard unlock.

Taking Exploration or Expansion hard unlocks colonist mechanics (an extra colonist you can get from Parliament or such sources are gated by one of those too). Except for a tiny number of countries like Norway who have that as national ideas. Or you could conquer some already colonized land, spawn colonial nation on conquered territory, and have them colonize it for you, but that's much weaker.

Religious unlocks two things - Deus Vult for claim-free warfare, which otherwise you get about 2/3 into the game with Imperialism CB. Nations with a lot of claims from missions can sort of get there too. It also soft unlocks converting provinces. You can have missionaries without it, but you will struggle hard to keep up converting.

Humanist sort of soft unlocks not having to deal with rebels. EU4 rebels are crazy weak, so it's not actually needed, but it sure gets rid of some hassle.

Administrative Ideas Detour

Administrative sort of unlocks playing wide in 1.30, as it's really hard to get governing capacity without it. This one is softer unlock.

Actually let's do some math, as I don't think . Old World has about 18k development, and could get to 20k by the time HRE minors are done spamming development button. New World generally uses CNs so doesn't count.

If you state-ified your half of continent, let's say 5k dev, and used trade companies everywhere else, 15k.

Without buildings you'll need 5000 cap for your states, and 7500 cap for your trade companies, for a total of 12500.

With Courthouses everywhere it's 3750 cap for your states, and 3750 cap again for your trade companies respectively, total of 7500 (that "25% discount" turned into 40% less).

With Town Halls everywhere it's 2500 cap for your states and 150 cap for your territories, or 2650 ("50% discount" turned into 79% less).

The main problem with that is of course building limit - but since base building slots is 2, and the only penalty is -1 Arctic - you can spam Manufactory + Town Hall in every province. Sadly that's most of your realm's building slots, so you won't be able to build much more. Good terrain or 10-19dev is just +1 slot beyond those two mandatory buildings. Building slots were already very limited, this change is seriously dreadful.

Anyway, you get 200 base, 400 as Empire, 250 from "L'État c'est moi" reform, 1700 from technology, 300 from 3 estate privileges. That's a total of 2850, so just barely squeezes it.

If you don't have final technology (let's say just 30), and don't have estate privileges (they're very expensive after absolutism), that's suddenly just 2050, good deal less than what you need. Administrative ideas with their +25% capacity bring that to 2562.5, getting pretty close to the target.

Even below world conquest level, governing capacity is a huge pain for wide play without administrative ideas, but it's mostly fine with them.

What if every idea group unlocked something

OK, let's get to - what if EU4 ideas unlocked new playstyles. Here are some radical suggestions.

I think only about half of these are possible to mod.

I had most trouble coming up with anything good for military groups.

Administrative groups:

Administrative. Already soft unlocks wide play with governing capacity

Economic. Unlocks development buttons. It sounds radical, but they used to be DLC locked and EU4 was supposedly playable without that.

Expansion. Already unlocks Colonists.

Humanist. Already soft unlocks not having to care about rebels.

Innovative. Allows taking technology ahead of time. Without that, you're hard locked to specific year. More brutally we could make innovative let you adopt institution at 10% provinces present as it does now, otherwise you need to wait for like 30% (that simple thing is not moddable as far as I know).

Religious. Already unlocks Deus Vult and soft unlocks conversions.

Diplomatic groups:

Diplomatic. It sort of soft unlocks some actions like divorces. It could gate some other less used diplomatic actions like insults. Most like wars, military access, royal marriages etc. are just needed for game to function.

Espionage. Unlocks all covert actions except Fabricate Claim, and they're not tech-gated.

Exploration. Already unlocks Colonists, Explorers, and Conquistadors.

Influence. Enables diplo-vassalizing and claiming throne. You can still vassalize by force.

Maritime. Enables privateering, and Trade Conflict CB (no longer part of covert action).

Trade. Unlocks collecting trade outside your main node. Otherwise you can only collect in your capital and transfer trade otherwise.

Military groups:

Aristocratic. Soft unlocks cavalry that's not total trash mid/late-game.

Defensive. Soft unlocks meaningful amount of enemy attrition.

Naval. Unlocks heavy ships. Without Naval, you can only build light, transports, and galleys. This would actually be quite realistic.

Offensive. Unlocks artillery and coastal barrage, and assaulting forts.

Plutocratic. This is so rare it would need to be something new. Maybe CB to force minor countries to become republics, like what republics used to have in EU4 at release time.

Quality. I don't have any great ideas. Maybe it could soft unlock high professionalism, by some some of yearly professionalism modifier? Without it, you'd need to go the current slow route.

Quantity. Soft unlocks not having to care about manpower. This would mostly need changes in balance (like drastic nerfs to 1.30 mercs), as now it just doesn't matter enough.

Would that make game better?

Going all the way, probably not.

And a lot of those ideas cannot be modded, or only with convoluted triggered modifiers (for example if you don't have Naval ideas, heavies cost +1000000% etc.).

But a few of those ideas sound pretty decent.

US military has terrible track record of losing wars

By just about any metric US military is by far the most powerful on the planet. The most powerful this planet has ever seen.

Yet, if you look at how it's been doing since WW2, it looks real bad.

I'm only including meaningful wars here, not just throwing a few bombs here and there.

Scorecard

I'll rate them on scale of: total failure, narrow failure, clear draw, narrow victory, total victory

Korean War - clear draw. After a lot of fighting everyone was pretty much where they all started.

Vietnam War - total failure. It doesn't get any clearer, nothing was left of what US spent so much time defending.

First Iraq War - narrow victory. Saddam was on verge of losing power, but US indecision let him crush the rebels and remain in power, remaining a problem for long time afterwards.

Afghanistan War - total failure, Taliban still controls most of Afghanistan, and Afghan government is basically negotiating terms of surrender.

Second Iraq War - narrow failure, Saddam was overthrown, but US got forced out by insurgents, and Iraq was 1/3 controlled by Islamic State, the rest by pro-Iranian puppet regime. After ISIS got defeated, pro-Iranian puppet regime controls Iraq.

So of big 5 wars, there's 2 total failures, 1 narrow failure, 1 clear draw, 1 narrow victory, and 0 total victories.

Is that what the world's biggest budget can buy?

It's not difficult to see the pattern. US military is terrible at counter-insurgency, and extremely unwilling to tolerate even modest casualties.

Many US cities are more dangerous than warzones US has been fighting, but even those modest losses are just too much.

So what is it good at?

So the question is - for all that money - what is it actually good at?

It's not actually clear it would be good at WW3 - most likely result is that everybody living in every major city anywhere dies from nuclear missiles.

At purely conventional version of WW3, general consensus is that Soviets would have conquered big parts of Western Europe before Americans would even show up. Not like Soviets had any intention of not using nukes. Every countries which couldn't retaliate was the target, including neutral countries.

It's really unclear that US would be able to win any of the likely regional conflicts with near-peer enemy.

It's not clear if US has any meaningful way to stop China from taking over Taiwan. China has effective ways to prevent any US ships from coming close.

Likewise if Russia wanted to conquer Ukraine or the Baltics, US wouldn't be able to do anything to prevent that.

This is mostly because geography favors its opponents in such cases.

US can win conventional fight against Third World countries, like Iraq in 1991 (on paper Saddam had one of 10 strongest armies in the world), but without willingness to accept costs of occupying those countries and ability to wage effective counter-insurgency this is of limited effectiveness.

US can bomb any Third World country it wants, but effects of that have been rather limited so far.

And US has no ability to defend its own borders - from illegal crossings - but that's intentional political failure.

It's by no means terrible, but relative to how much money is spent on it, it looks quite disappointing.

What if all EU4 idea groups were good

Many EU4 idea groups are bad. There are two sides of this badness - power level and identity.

Power level is relatively easy to analyze objectively. I once created an algorithm to rank all EU4 idea groups. This was 5 years ago, patches completely changing game balance happened, so those specific values are outdated. Not to mention original algorithm had some minor issues.

I try to keep the scoring algorithm more or less up to date, so assuming I didn't miss any important changes, here's the 1.30 latest ranking.

Everything in this post is about single player only, multiplayer meta is drastically different.

Basic Ideas Ranking

• 9.09 Expansion Ideas
• 7.65 Diplomatic Ideas
• 6.00 Exploration Ideas
• 5.66 Religious Ideas
• 5.58 Administrative Ideas
• 5.35 Influence Ideas
• 4.67 Humanist Ideas
• 4.33 Plutocratic Ideas
• 3.89 Trade Ideas
• 3.89 Aristocratic Ideas
• 3.80 Quantity Ideas
• 3.33 Offensive Ideas
• 3.13 Innovative Ideas
• 2.92 Quality Ideas
• 2.75 Espionage Ideas
• 2.26 Defensive Ideas
• 1.58 Economic Ideas
• 1.12 Maritime Ideas
• 0.75 Naval Ideas

National Ideas Ranking

• 10.75 Holy Roman Ideas
• 10.27 Asturian Ideas
• 10.17 Great Yuan Ideas
• 9.60 Imperial German Ideas
• 9.50 Great Qing Ideas
• 9.17 Roman Ideas
• 9.12 Kiwi Ideas
• 8.93 Andalusian Ideas
• 8.83 Russian Ideas
• 8.25 Synthetic Ideas
• 8.04 Icelandic Ideas
• 7.98 Castilian Ideas
• 7.92 American Ideas
• 7.85 Oirat Ideas
• 7.67 West Indies Ideas
• 7.54 Jerusalem Ideas
• 7.24 Oda Ideas
• 7.19 French Ideas
• 7.18 Herzegovinian Ideas
• 7.09 Rûmi Ideas
• 6.96 Yamana Ideas
• 6.85 Lotharingian Ideas
• 6.85 Italian Ideas
• 6.79 Carib Ideas
• 6.74 Spanish Ideas
• 6.69 Norwegian Ideas
• 6.66 Mongolian Ideas
• 6.65 Mughal Ideas
• 6.56 Austrian Ideas
• 6.55 Leonese Ideas
• 6.54 Mysorean Ideas
• 6.37 Hindustani Ideas
• 6.37 Kazani Ideas
• 6.36 Hadramhi Ideas
• 6.34 Golden Horde Ideas
• 6.34 Ottoman Ideas
• 6.24 Iroquois Ideas
• 6.19 Japanese Ideas
• 6.18 Sardinian Ideas
• 6.10 Australian Ideas
• 6.10 Crimean Ideas
• 6.07 Rajputana ideas
• 6.03 Aq Qoyunlu Ideas
• 5.97 Canadian Ideas
• 5.93 Irish Ideas
• 5.92 Bharathi Ideas
• 5.86 Deccani Ideas
• 5.86 Prussian Ideas
• 5.84 Saluzzo Ideas
• 5.83 Anatolian Ideas
• 5.81 Najdi Ideas
• 5.77 Candarid Ideas
• 5.74 Chernihiv Ideas
• 5.72 Karamanid Ideas
• 5.70 Nagpuri Ideas
• 5.67 Burmese Ideas
• 5.65 Imagawa Ideas
• 5.63 Nepali Ideas
• 5.58 Sardinian-Piedmontese Ideas
• 5.56 Ayyubid Ideas
• 5.54 Delhian Ideas
• 5.54 Qara Qoyunlu Ideas
• 5.54 Desmondian Ideas
• 5.51 Bosnian Ideas
• 5.46 Chagatai Ideas
• 5.44 Trent Ideas
• 5.42 Divine Ideas
• 5.41 Manipur Ideas
• 5.40 Knights Hospitaller Ideas
• 5.39 Khorasani Ideas
• 5.39 Greek Ideas
• 5.36 Native Ideas
• 5.36 Manchu Ideas
• 5.33 Antemoro Ideas
• 5.30 Colognian Ideas
• 5.29 Three Leagues Ideas
• 5.25 Tarascan Ideas
• 5.25 Wallachian Ideas
• 5.22 Tibetan Ideas
• 5.22 Polish Ideas
• 5.21 Date Ideas
• 5.19 Mantuan Ideas
• 5.19 Mushasha Ideas
• 5.17 Dalmatian Ideas
• 5.15 Muscovite Ideas
• 5.13 Swedish Ideas
• 5.13 Moluccan Ideas
• 5.11 Ryazan Ideas
• 5.08 Byzantine Ideas
• 5.08 Pegu Ideas
• 5.05 Bremen Ideas
• 4.95 Bulgarian Ideas
• 4.94 Saxon Ideas
• 4.92 Asakura Ideas
• 4.92 Shoni Ideas
• 4.91 Münster Ideas
• 4.90 Teutonic Ideas
• 4.89 Kievan Ideas
• 4.88 Epirote Ideas
• 4.83 Timurid Ideas
• 4.80 British ideas
• 4.77 Provençal Ideas
• 4.76 Sukhothai Ideas
• 4.75 Otomo Ideas
• 4.75 Hungarian Ideas
• 4.74 Kaffan Ideas
• 4.73 Westphalian Ideas
• 4.72 Rigan Ideas
• 4.71 Perugian Ideas
• 4.71 Tokugawa Ideas
• 4.70 Gond Ideas
• 4.69 Romanian Ideas
• 4.67 Jan Mayen Ideas
• 4.66 Utrecht Ideas
• 4.66 Great Shun Ideas
• 4.65 Kitabatake Ideas
• 4.63 Assamese Ideas
• 4.63 Ajami Ideas
• 4.62 Rassid Ideas
• 4.62 Manx Ideas
• 4.62 Ethiopian Ideas
• 4.61 Württemberger Ideas
• 4.60 Ryukyuan Ideas
• 4.59 Bohemian Ideas
• 4.56 Cilli Ideas
• 4.56 Sicilian Ideas
• 4.55 Papal Ideas
• 4.55 Holstein Ideas
• 4.55 Palatinate Ideas
• 4.54 Hojo Ideas
• 4.53 Nanbu Ideas
• 4.53 Trierian Ideas
• 4.53 Dai Viet Ideas
• 4.52 Dithmarscher Ideas
• 4.52 Liège Ideas
• 4.51 Aachen Ideas
• 4.51 Kanem Bornuan Ideas
• 4.51 Mapuche Ideas
• 4.50 Brandenburg Ideas
• 4.50 Georgian Ideas
• 4.49 Cossack Ideas
• 4.48 Bengal Sultanate Ideas
• 4.48 Rostov Ideas
• 4.47 Burgundian Ideas
• 4.46 German Ideas
• 4.43 Alaskan Ideas
• 4.43 Nizhny Novgorod Ideas
• 4.43 Daimyo Ideas
• 4.42 Bamberger Ideas
• 4.42 Lithuanian Ideas
• 4.41 Shimazu Ideas
• 4.40 Maravi Ideas
• 4.38 Satake Ideas
• 4.37 Kongo Ideas
• 4.37 Athenian Ideas
• 4.37 Tumbuka Ideas
• 4.36 Medri Bahri Ideas
• 4.35 Butua Ideas
• 4.34 Uesugi Ideas
• 4.33 Rajput Ideas
• 4.32 Moravian Ideas
• 4.31 Kildarean Ideas
• 4.31 Granada Ideas
• 4.30 Khmer Ideas
• 4.30 Thüringian Ideas
• 4.29 Malian Ideas
• 4.29 Swabian City-State Ideas
• 4.28 Ansbach Ideas
• 4.25 Swabian Ideas
• 4.25 Yarkandi Ideas
• 4.23 Franconian Ideas
• 4.20 Novgorod Ideas
• 4.19 Butuan Ideas
• 4.19 Colonial Ideas
• 4.18 Ogasawara Ideas
• 4.16 Sindhi Ideas
• 4.15 Montferrat Ideas
• 4.14 Mossi Ideas
• 4.13 Ito Ideas
• 4.13 Client State Ideas
• 4.12 Kikuchi Ideas
• 4.11 Brunswicker Ideas
• 4.10 Lan Na Ideas
• 4.09 Scottish Ideas
• 4.09 Hanoverian Ideas
• 4.08 Jurchen Ideas
• 4.08 Lur Ideas
• 4.06 Trebizond Ideas
• 4.06 Bregenzer Ideas
• 4.06 Arakanese Ideas
• 4.06 Dortmund Ideas
• 4.04 Ilkhanid Ideas
• 4.04 Naxian Ideas
• 4.04 Ouchi Ideas
• 4.03 Chosokabe Ideas
• 4.03 Québécois Ideas
• 4.02 Tsutsui Ideas
• 4.02 Luxembourg Ideas
• 4.01 Isshiki Ideas
• 4.01 English Ideas
• 4.00 Farsi Ideas
• 3.98 Aztec Ideas
• 3.96 Ormond Ideas
• 3.93 Ajuuraan Ideas
• 3.93 Shan Ideas
• 3.92 Luban Ideas
• 3.91 Semien Ideas
• 3.91 Tuscan Ideas
• 3.91 Afghan Ideas
• 3.90 Chinese Ideas
• 3.90 Texan Ideas
• 3.88 Finnish Ideas
• 3.88 Savoyard Ideas
• 3.86 Armenian Ideas
• 3.86 Bahmani Ideas
• 3.86 Rothenburg Ideas
• 3.85 Great Ming Ideas
• 3.85 Hormuz Ideas
• 3.84 Beninese Ideas
• 3.82 Offaly Ideas
• 3.81 Huron Ideas
• 3.81 Berg Ideas
• 3.80 Cornish Ideas
• 3.79 Songhai Ideas
• 3.79 Pskovian Ideas
• 3.78 Hatakeyama Ideas
• 3.78 Maratha Ideas
• 3.77 Breton Ideas
• 3.76 Punjabi Ideas
• 3.76 Brazilian Ideas
• 3.76 Amago Ideas
• 3.75 Sonoran Ideas
• 3.75 Persian Ideas
• 3.74 Odoyev Ideas
• 3.74 Thomondian Ideas
• 3.74 Samtskhe Ideas
• 3.73 Mainzian Ideas
• 3.73 Tirhuti Ideas
• 3.72 Ando Ideas
• 3.72 Dhundhari Ideas
• 3.71 Ruthenian Ideas
• 3.70 Yemeni Ideas
• 3.70 Chiba Ideas
• 3.69 Mayan Ideas
• 3.68 Clevian Ideas
• 3.67 Gujarati Princedom Ideas
• 3.66 Shawnee Ideas
• 3.66 Estonian Ideas
• 3.65 Krakowian Ideas
• 3.64 Piratical Ideas
• 3.64 Javan Ideas
• 3.63 Garhwali Ideas
• 3.63 Moldavian Ideas
• 3.63 Catalan Ideas
• 3.62 Bayreuther Ideas
• 3.60 Mexican Ideas
• 3.59 K'iche Ideas
• 3.58 Vermont Ideas
• 3.58 Anhalt Ideas
• 3.58 Milanese Ideas
• 3.58 Air Ideas
• 3.58 Utsunomiya Ideas
• 3.55 Hessian Ideas
• 3.55 Mesoamerican Ideas
• 3.54 Ashanti Ideas
• 3.54 Shirvani Ideas
• 3.54 Tyrconnell Ideas
• 3.53 Malabari Ideas
• 3.53 Goslar Ideas
• 3.53 Lan Xang Ideas
• 3.51 Yi Ideas
• 3.50 Pagarruyung Ideas
• 3.50 Garjati Ideas
• 3.49 Leinster Ideas
• 3.49 Theodoro Ideas
• 3.48 Mori Ideas
• 3.48 Genevan Ideas
• 3.48 Circassian Ideas
• 3.48 Ladakh Ideas
• 3.48 Orleanaise Ideas
• 3.47 Nepalese Princedom Ideas
• 3.47 Gutnish Ideas
• 3.46 Miao Ideas
• 3.45 Muiscan Ideas
• 3.45 Nuremberger Ideas
• 3.44 Siddi Ideas
• 3.44 Laotian Ideas
• 3.44 Shiba Ideas
• 3.44 Ardabili Ideas
• 3.43 Neapolitan Ideas
• 3.42 Sinhalese Ideas
• 3.42 Bavarian Ideas
• 3.41 Portuguese Ideas
• 3.41 Yaroslavlyian Ideas
• 3.41 Sadiyan Ideas
• 3.41 Northumbrian Ideas
• 3.40 Transylvanian Ideas
• 3.39 Kutai Ideas
• 3.39 Takeda Ideas
• 3.39 Creek Ideas
• 3.39 Sami Ideas
• 3.37 Mewari Ideas
• 3.36 Bolognese Ideas
• 3.35 Fulani Jihad Ideas
• 3.34 Welsh Ideas
• 3.34 Munster Ideas
• 3.34 Imerina Ideas
• 3.34 Polotskian Ideas
• 3.34 Pacific Northwest Ideas
• 3.33 Kurdish Ideas
• 3.33 Ava Ideas
• 3.31 Tverian Ideas
• 3.31 Slovak Ideas
• 3.31 Kangra Ideas
• 3.31 Tyrone Ideas
• 3.30 Croatian Ideas
• 3.29 Deccani Sultanate Ideas
• 3.27 Interlacustrine Ideas
• 3.23 Cherokee Ideas
• 3.20 Wurzburgian Ideas
• 3.18 Vijayanagar Ideas
• 3.17 Mutapan Ideas
• 3.16 Frankfurter Ideas
• 3.16 Bengali Ideas
• 3.16 Meath Ideas
• 3.16 Barbary Corsair Ideas
• 3.15 Sumatran Ideas
• 3.14 Arabian Ideas
• 3.14 Dutch Ideas
• 3.12 Guarani Ideas
• 3.12 Lunda Ideas
• 3.12 Vindhyan Ideas
• 3.11 Beloozero Ideas
• 3.10 Swahili Ideas
• 3.10 Gelre Ideas
• 3.10 Nubian Ideas
• 3.09 Hosokawa Ideas
• 3.09 Highlander Ideas
• 3.08 Korean Ideas
• 3.08 Danish Ideas
• 3.08 Zambezi Ideas
• 3.08 Couronian Ideas
• 3.07 Mindanao Ideas
• 3.06 Evenk Ideas
• 3.03 Incan Ideas
• 3.03 Saxe-Lauenburg Ideas
• 3.02 Serbian Ideas
• 3.00 Arawak Ideas
• 3.00 Tripuran Ideas
• 3.00 Galician Ideas
• 2.99 French Ducal Ideas
• 2.98 Kuban Ideas
• 2.97 Veronese Ideas
• 2.97 Ulmer Ideas
• 2.91 Baluch Ideas
• 2.91 Ainu Ideas
• 2.88 Aragonese Ideas
• 2.88 Mamluk Ideas
• 2.87 Corsican Ideas
• 2.87 Toki Ideas
• 2.87 Swiss Ideas
• 2.85 Hejazi Ideas
• 2.84 Pisan Ideas
• 2.83 Orissan Ideas
• 2.83 Lusatian Ideas
• 2.80 South Indian Ideas
• 2.80 Caspian Ideas
• 2.79 Mazovian Ideas
• 2.79 Lüneburger Ideas
• 2.78 Cypriot Ideas
• 2.78 Urbinate Ideas
• 2.78 Montenegrin Ideas
• 2.78 Tapuian Ideas
• 2.76 Jaunpuri Ideas
• 2.75 Ulster Ideas
• 2.72 Silesian Ideas
• 2.72 Zaporozhian Ideas
• 2.70 Hausan Ideas
• 2.68 Norman Ideas
• 2.67 Tunisian Ideas
• 2.66 Hamburger Ideas
• 2.64 Sligonian Ideas
• 2.64 Malayan Sultanate Ideas
• 2.64 West African Ideas
• 2.63 Gujarat Sultanate Ideas
• 2.63 Ayutthayan Ideas
• 2.62 So Ideas
• 2.61 Caucasian Ideas
• 2.59 Siberian Ideas
• 2.58 Danziger Ideas
• 2.57 Lorraine Ideas
• 2.57 Ragusan Ideas
• 2.57 Sistani Ideas
• 2.56 Malagasy Ideas
• 2.56 Indian Sultanate Ideas
• 2.56 Malvi Ideas
• 2.54 Clanricarde Ideas
• 2.54 Ionian Ideas
• 2.52 Betsimisaraka Ideas
• 2.52 Mogadishan Ideas
• 2.51 Dahomey Ideas
• 2.49 Brabant Ideas
• 2.49 Pomeranian Ideas
• 2.47 Dali Ideas
• 2.47 Permian Ideas
• 2.46 Pueblo Ideas
• 2.44 Al-Haasa Ideas
• 2.44 Omani Ideas
• 2.43 Cham Ideas
• 2.43 Smolenskian Ideas
• 2.42 Ferraran Ideas
• 2.42 Hanseatic Ideas
• 2.40 Berber Ideas
• 2.40 Italian Ideas
• 2.39 Chimu Ideas
• 2.39 Baden Ideas
• 2.38 Frisian Ideas
• 2.37 Cebu Ideas
• 2.37 Chachapoyan Ideas
• 2.37 Moroccan Ideas
• 2.36 Nivernais Ideas
• 2.35 Kongolese Ideas
• 2.35 Telugu Ideas
• 2.33 Albanian Ideas
• 2.31 Sienese Ideas
• 2.30 Pattani Ideas
• 2.26 Ashikaga Ideas
• 2.25 Somali Ideas
• 2.24 Transoxianian Ideas
• 2.23 Flemish Ideas
• 2.14 Mahri Ideas
• 2.06 Cascadian Ideas
• 2.01 Horde Ideas
• 2.00 Aymaran Ideas
• 1.99 Khivan Ideas
• 1.98 Luzon Ideas
• 1.93 Luccan Ideas
• 1.91 Tupi Ideas
• 1.78 East Frisian Ideas
• 1.77 Navarran Ideas
• 1.76 Charruan Ideas
• 1.74 Andean Ideas
• 1.69 National Ideas
• 1.68 Chickasaw Ideas
• 1.55 Venetian Ideas
• 1.08 Genoese Ideas
• 1.07 Kono Ideas
• 1.04 Madyas Ideas
• 1.03 Sulawesi Ideas

Identity Issue

So anyway, power level issues can be tweaked by just changing some numbers, no big deal. A much more interesting issue is lack of identity, or what playstyle should you be taking this idea group for?

The algorithm scores ideas for some generic playstyle assumptions. The further your playstyle is from generic, the more it makes sense to pick some idea group that's not generically best.

Some idea groups have great identity. For example it's really clear what Religious is about. It's about spreading your religion, by fighting infidels, and missionary work in your country. Or for a weaker group Trade - it has perfectly fine identity - it's all about making money from trading, and it does exactly what it says.

But for of the ideas have no such identity, and their name usually corresponds to nothing. Like what's "Defensive" ideas about? How is it about defending specifically? Not much at all.

Or how about Diplomatic and Influence? They both give some bonuses to diplomatic stuff, but does it make any sense when you should pick which one? Not really. Or even worse, how about Espionage? It's supposed to be about spies, but spies are not a meaningful EU4 playstyle, it's not CK2. So it's a bag of unrelated bonuses nobody's ever happy about taking. And now that AE reduction got moved from Influence to Espionage, none of Diplomatic/Influence/Espionage trio actually has much identity left.

And the worst of all are idea groups like Maritime, which both lack any sort of identity, and which are painfully weak in every playstyle.

So here's some of my thoughts. What if every idea group was buffed to be playable, and also had some strong identity, so you know that for certain playstyle it actually makes sense to pick it. I grouped them by how well defined they already are.

Idea groups that already work

Administrative

With governing capacity change, it's pretty much a mandatory pick for most playstyles, and doesn't need help.

1.30 weakened its identity. Before that, it was mostly just had coring cost reduction, so if you wanted to play wide (a default playstyle) and expanded mostly by coring, administrative was very good, but not necessary. For tall play, it just didn't do much. Or for expanding by integrating subjects.

It also had state limit increase. Due to the way pre-1.30 trade companies worked, it wasn't really as big a deal as devs wanted, since most of you 0% autonomy land would just belong to a trade company anyway. But state limit also said "take this if you want to play wide".

Now with governing capacity change, wide play makes administrative nearly mandatory, whichever way you expand, but tall play and developing your medium-sized country a lot is also going to run into a lot of governing capacity issues, so administrative are a good idea either way. But they're still especially useful for wide play.

Since administrative ideas are so strong, the best way to improve its identity is not strengthen it, but to give other idea groups some ways to save on governing capacity.

Exploration and Expansion

Back when EU4 was released these two used to have very clear identity. Exploration was about colonizing, especially Americas. Expansion was bout colonizing, especially Africa and Asia.

Back then Exploration had 2 Colonists, perfect for mostly empty America, and gave very good CB on New World pagans, so it was about colonizing there. And Expansion had just 1 Colonist but gave very good CB on Asia and Africa (or whichever parts of Old World you're not based in), so it was about conquering Old World with some colonizing on the side - also perfect match as those lands had a lot fewer uncolonized provinces and a lot more easy pickings of technologically backwards nations.

Somehow second colonist got moved to Expansion, both special CBs got lost (and even the shitty replacement of claim fabrication in trade company regions got removed in 1.30), so they're both really mainly about colonizing the New World, with side serving of the Old.

I think it's best to treat it as a single idea group that just so happens to take two idea group slots. Usually you'll take Exploration as your 1st, Expansion as your 2nd or 3rd.

Taking just one of them really isn't advisable. Maybe Expansion only at 4th or 5th if you want to join colonization late. Or taking Expansion only if you're in Asia and really want to get free Colonialism institution and don't care much about colonists.

So while it would be nice to restore old system where each of them corresponded to part of the world you might want to focus your expansion into, they're good enough as is. And they definitely don't need any buffs, colonists are already one of the best bonuses you can get.

Humanist

Its main selling point is that you don't need to care about peasants' religions, peasants' cultures, and rebellions in general.

From power level point of view, I think it's strictly worse than Religious, since rebels in EU4 are ridiculously weak, so it's no big deal to just crush them whenever they show up. It also lacks amazing Deus Vult from Religious, and you usually only want to take one of the two.

But it definitely saves a lot of rebel fighting micro, so a lot of players love it, and that's clear enough identity.

Religious

It's extremely strong, and has very strong identity - spread your faith by fighting infidels, spread your faith by converting peasants, and have a stable country as result of its religious unity. It doesn't need any help.

Idea groups that just need a little buff

Aristocratic

It's a fairly unfocused bag of bonuses, but I think it can be really good with just a small tweak.

Aristocratic sort of focuses on helping cavalry, but on base level EU4 cavalry is just so awful such bonuses just don't mean much. With no bonuses you should never bother with cavalry. Even with fairly big bonuses cavalry is just barely worth it, and only huge bonus stacking (like going Aristocratic + Tengri + Commonwealth) make it actually good.

If Aristocratic just about tripled its cavalry bonuses, it would gain strong identity without actually making it all that strong. If you take Aristocratic, it would incentivize going from 16inf 4cav 10art armies to 12inf 8cav 10art, or something along those lines, and perhaps even keep that cavalry into late game.

Economic

In principle an idea group saying "play tall" and "earn more money" is fine, but those bonuses are just too low. Especially changing construction costs from -10% to let's say -30% could allow countries to afford all those temples, workshops, and manufactories more easily.

It should probably get bigger development discount as well for playing tall (like -20% to -30%). Various administrative groups are among the strongest, so it needs a big buff to be competitive.

Offensive

Offense primarily means wanting to siege opponent's forts faster, and offensive already does that, but its bonus could be a lot stronger. Doubling down on this, like by adding +1 Leader siege, or +2 max artillery bonus (so you can siege faster, but only if you bring tons of artillery there and pay attrition price) would really help.

I think that paradoxically giving some siege defense would also really help offensively focused countries, as siege racing is how you win fast offensive wars in EU4.

Trade

It's about trade, and gives decent trade bonuses, but it could definitely be stronger.

It could also give big bonuses to trade company provinces - like lower minimum autonomy, lower governing capacity cost, lower trade company investment cost, or such.

If your trade companies had lower governing capacity cost, and were overall more useful, then you could play wide without going administrative - at least as long as you mostly expanded with trade companies, not states.

It could also add some small bonus to trade fleets, like let's say +25% Naval force limit modifier, as trade oriented nations need naval force limit more.

Quality

It has some kind of identity - it wants to make your army stronger per soldier / ship. It just doesn't do enough.

Increasing +0.5 yearly army tradition to like +2 yearly army and +2 yearly navy tradition would greatly round up this idea group, by making not just common soldiers but also army leadership much stronger.

Quantity

It has strong identity - it lets you have bigger army. It's just not clear who would want that. Is it meant for a small country which wants to make its army bigger; or for an already big country like Russia or Ming which wants to make its big army even more enormous?

It needs a buff, and it's actually clear what kind of buff - your huge army will never have enough generals, so like +2 leader limit and maybe a -20% leader recruitment cost discount, will really round it up.

Idea groups that need stronger identity

Defensive

The group claims it's about defending better, but what does that actually mean? EU4 attrition is capped at such a low level, and manpower is so abundant, that there's no hope of ever running the attacker out of manpower by attrition, the way that's totally viable in CK2.

Small bonus to fort defense would actually be far better if you're on the offense. If you're defending, it just delays the inevitable loss slightly. And even if you successfully defend your territory you're still at nearly 0% warscore and with AI unwilling to give you anything for your trouble.

Really the only way this idea group makes any sense is by massively buffing your combat abilities as long as you're on your core territory. It's not exactly an original idea. CK2 "Defensive Pagans" have it. Civ5 Ethiopia has it. So many games have this. I'm surprised EU4 doesn't have anything like that.

Some nations already get +1 naval combat bonus off owned coasts, but there are no bonuses of any kind for land combat on own territory.

-20% Local hostile movement speed would probably do, especially since it stacks with Scortched Earth so well, but it would need to be applied to every province owned by nation with Defensive ideas by an event, so it would be fairly messy to mod.

Without heavy modding, I think +20% movement speed would actually do nicely. It sounds offensive, but actually in EU4 offense is about sieges, and defense is about getting into a advantageous battles to bleed out the attackers. Buffing this weak group with more siege defense and enemy attrition wouldn't hurt either, especially if attrition cap got increased from 5% to something more meaningful like 10%.

Diplomatic

When EU4 came out, Diplomatic used to be a stupidly good idea group. Then it got split into Diplomatic and Influence, nerfed a bunch, and finally some of their bonuses got moved to Espionage to shore that up.

So what Diplomatic / Influence / Espionage each do? They all make your diplomacy betters with a fairly random mix of bonuses each. Fortunately with some simple rearrangement we could give them solid identity.

Let's start with Diplomatic - it will be an idea group for making other countries tolerate your aggressive expansion.

It already has +25% Improve relations, −20% Province warscore cost, Lowered impact on stability from diplomatic actions, and +2 diplomats. All it needs is getting that sweet −20% Aggressive expansion impact from Espionage, and −50% Unjustified demands from Influence.

It could then lose +1 Diplomatic relation or +2 Diplomatic reputation, as these are very strong but don't really fit in its new core identity of helping expand aggressively.

Influence

If Diplomatic is about smoothing out diplomacy for aggressively expanding countries, what should Influence do? Expanding through subjects of course!

First it absolutely needs May fabricate claims for subjects from Espionage, and it could get bigger Diplomatic reputation bonus, and possibly +1 Diplomatic relation if Diplomatic loses it.

−25% Diplomatic annexation cost could be increased to maybe even as much as -50%. Expansion through subjects used to be really effective but now just so much worse than expansion through coring, that we could definitely use a bonus bigger than Administrative ideas' −25% Core-creation cost.

It would be a great pick for a country that has a lot of PUs through missions and no free annexation by button, like Bohemia.

Naval

Naval ideas actually have decent identity - they're about making your navies win battles. It's just that in EU4 this is completely irrelevant 99% of the time, and maybe worth throwing some money at, but definitely not a whole idea group slot.

At the very least it needs to give an extra leader slot or two, so you can actually hire some admirals without starving your land army of leadership (I vaguely recall that next patch is supposed to have separate admiral limit, so that problem might go away).

Even throwing in every single modifier from Naval and Maritime into a single idea group, and then a bit more, would really make a completely underwhelming idea group nobody has any reason to take.

One way to help it would be by increasing importance of naval combat, and removing all straits could do just that, but that would really mess up with AI and overall game balance.

Plutocratic

Plutocratic is a fairly decent but not very coherent group of bonuses for republics (except Noble republics, but they're rare and bad) and also somehow plutocratic monarchies (basically a rare Indian Ocean thing).

Plutocratic could easily become "play a republic" idea group if it had some modest republican tradition bonus like +0.25.

That wouldn't help plutocratic monarchies, but they're weird hybrid already, so that's fine.

Idea groups I don't know what to do about

Espionage

Third "make diplomacy better" group after Diplomatic and Influence, and by far the worst. And I want to make it even worse by moving some of its bonuses to Diplomatic and Influence, as they're close enough to fixable.

The worst thing about Espionage ideas is that EU4's espionage system is just terrible.

Most covert actions unlock really late, and most of them - like Slander Merchants, Support Rebels, or Sabotage Recruitment, are a total waste of time.

Somehow EU3 had a lot better spy system - spies were separate from diplomats, and you needed ideas to get any spies so they could be more powerful. They had abilities such as:

• Infiltrate Administration - removes fog of war for a while (it's in EU4 but at adm tech 30 so game never gets there)
• Bribe defenders - free siege progress
• Commission privateer - creates pirate naval rebels
• Support revolt - actually generates rebellion (in 5 different variants) - in early EU4 patches it still sort of worked, by now it's completely useless

And a bunch more.

EU4 really needs drastic changes to spy system for Espionage ideas to do their job. Some ideas:

• make Espionage ideas unlock espionage abilities like Infiltrate Administration early
• or just make those abilities happen early for everyone
• make Support rebels just actually spawn the damn rebels

And it could use some new spy options. Most obvious one would be CK2 style ruler/heir assassinations, but balancing that one looks like hell. Especially if AI starts using it on you.

Some other ideas for new actions:

• create royal marriage regardless of target's opinion
• if you have royal marriage, give them heir of your own dynasty (or give yourself heir of their dynasty)
• steal money (scaling that properly would be difficult)
• bribe enemy general to switch to your side
• reduce AE with target at price of some gold (like 100 gold and 25 spy points for -10 AE or something)
• fabricate other CBs, like Subjugation CB

Unfortunately implementing them in balanced way, especially if they're meant for both player and AI, is not going to be easy.

The easiest way to make Espionage at least a little good would be to make Support rebels actually usable (like +50% monthly rebel tick chance, not +10%, and at far lower money cost, maybe zero, as it's currently ridiculous relative to what you get), make late game covert actions like Infiltrate Administration available earlier, and then increase bonuses for this group anyway.

Innovative

By name this group wants to be about being ahead of everyone else in technology. Except that is just plain impossible in EU4. Especially since they introduced Institutions, the whole world - from Western Europe all the way to African jungle - has the same military technology plus or minus maybe 2 techs (25 years difference), and maybe up to 4 techs (50 years) in adm/dip tech, but those barely make an impact on anything. In reality technology difference between Europe and rest of the world was between centuries (Asia) to thousands of years (Africa and best parts of Americas) to literally tens of thousands of years (Australia and rest of Americas). Especially in ocean going naval technology, Europe was like in a completely different universe compared with what everyone else was doing.

You have no way of getting ahead of the pack, as 10% per year ahead of time penalty is so brutal, even throwing away all awful you can't go more than a few years ahead of everyone else.

Recent patch introduced "innovativeness" mechanic, which is basically a bonus for being ahead of tech, because techs themselves are quite irrelevant. It helps with strategy of going for very high (or even 100%) innovativeness, which is quite achievable for the player as most Western European countries, but totally impossible for the AI.

The whole world has only 302% innovativeness to share between each other, from all techs and ideas, so that's like 1-2% per country. Maybe a bit more as there's events that give innovativeness, and it's possible for multiple countries to gain bonus for the same tech if they get it within 90 days of the leader, but really it's a weird race.

If you don't try to go for max innovativeness, the idea group is really unfocused.

One thing that could work would be reducing ahead of time penalty for techs if you have innovative, so you only pay 5% per year not 10% per year. This cannot be modded directly, so it would need to be a huge list of triggered modifiers based on current year, current tech, and that tech's year. Or the whole "ahead of time" system could be replaced with something less punitive and more dynamic, but the game heavily relies on current system.

Innovative cannot really be saved by just increasing its bonuses. Technology is gained by monarch points, so if we just give Innovative a lot more monarch points - like by huge tech/idea discounts, and advisor cost discounts, then it will be overpowered for everything - while not actually making you take technologies any faster.

Maybe it could increase government reform speed? It's currently painfully slow to get to the good stuff at the end, so it would be one option to do so faster.

Maritime

It's a total dupster fire, even more so than Naval.

It sort of has one use - if you go over force limit on light ships protecting trade, and stack all other naval tradition modifiers to get permanent 100%, you get really huge trade steering bonuses, so your long chain of dominated trade nodes gan give you ridiculous amount of income. Maritime's +100% Naval tradition from protecting trade can actually be quite useful to achieve this, but really if you ever get to this point, then you control half of the world already, so the game is over regardless.

Making it all about trade companies could be a thing, but really Trade already wants those trade company bonuses, and making Maritime "second Trade ideas, just worse" really doesn't seem that appealing.

One way to help it would be to make it "second Trade ideas, except not worse", throwing in some big trade steering and light ship trade power bonuses, maybe an extra merchant, and 5% trade efficiency.

It would probably be better to just remove it from the game completely, and divide its flimsy bonuses between Naval and Trade.

What could have idea group

If we drop Maritime, or just wanted to introduce a completely new group, either as replacement, or an extra, what could that be? Here are a few ideas.

Industry Ideas - give bonuses to goods produced, production efficiency, and development cost. As finisher it lets you change trade goods in a province you own if you develop it enough. So that Napoli at 22dev making crappy Grain? Maybe my throwing some money or points you could change it to Wine or Paper. What about Grain producing mountain in Avellino next door? Maybe deving it up to 20 would flip it to Iron or Copper. The whole system needs to consider terrain, climate, and such things to not do anything crazy, but modest trade good changes wouldn't break the game.

We could even do some limited terrain changes, replacing Forest or Marsh with Farmland, but right now there's not terribly much incentive to do so - it would save you some dev cost, but mostly just remove your defense bonus.

I'm not sure what would be other good idea groups that would fit within framework of the game.

Game changes it all requires

So to recap, to make it work I'd need a few game changes beyond idea group bonuses:

• remove most or all strait crossings (for Naval)
• higher attrition cap (for Defensive matters)
• redo spy system (for Espionage)

That brings 17/18 idea groups into fairly good state. I really don't know how to salvage Maritime.

If you have any fun ideas about rebalancing existing ideas differently or adding new ones, let me know in the comments.